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Challenge applications

I can't help but be curious about the strict legal ramifications of offering a prize in a contest that is known to be utterly impossible to win?

It's not a contest. It's a challenge. You aren't competing against other people for a prize one of you will win, you're trying to meet the criteria someone has given to gain an award.
 
Not really. The purpose is actually to have people demonstrate to have a special ability whilst filtering out anyone that by mistake, unknowingly or knowingly, or on purpose is actually doing something else which is already explainable and does not constitute a special ability.

Your wording suggests that it is only targeted at the meanspirited, but the ignorant are just as much candidate as well.

The thing is, that's not actually the case. The MDC was created specifically to target frauds, and that's who Randi has always gone after. It's been modified several times to try to prevent the ignorant and delusional from taking part so it can remain focussed on the frauds. It can serve as an educational tool for the ignorant incidentally, but that's not why it's actually there.

The contest is 'rigged' and impossible to win anyway, but in the legal sense, not a fraud in any way. It's rigged in the sense that science cannot prove anything is supernatural nor can science prove something isn't supernatural either. Neither side can prove its case.

This nonsense again? The MDC requires both parties to sign a legally binding contract. What "science" considers supernatural is irrelevant. All the matters is that the JREF agrees the claim is paranormal before the challenge takes place. Once the contract is signed, neither party can get out of it. If it turns out that everything is perfectly explainable scientifically afterwards, the JREF still has to pay out the million.

Only the truly deluded would submit to such a challenge, but these people are not the main problem. It's the people who know pseudoscience for what it is and bilk millions using it for fame and profit. You won't find those people taking any such challenge seriously.

But that's pretty much the whole point. The JREF waves a million dollars around that should be easy for them to take if they can do what they claim. When they refuse such an easy offer, the JREF can point out to the world that that looks rather suspicious.

If I were a popular psychic offered the challenge, I could flippantly say:
"Who needs your million dollars? I can make five times that much by simply continuing what I've been doing."

Sure, people come up with all kinds of excuses to avoid or explain away the MDC, just as they do for everything that shows them to be frauds. They have to, since the alternatives are either admitting they can't do what they claim, or actually taking the challenge and publicly demonstrating that they can't. There's never going to be any way around that, but the mere existence of excuses doesn't mean we shouldn't try at all.

Unfortunately, there's not too much Mr. Randi could say to answer that slur, except to concede that it is a valid point and becoming more so all the time.

Actually, that's a very easily answered claim. Aside from a few of the really big frauds, a million dollars is still a significant amount of money for anyone. Refusing to take a million dollars for less than a day's work is, as I say, rather suspicious if you can actually do as you claim. That's probably why we see this sort of excuse from believers all the time but never actually from the frauds themselves, since the frauds know just how silly it sounds to anyone not already brainwashed. They prefer to go with not needing money at all, the money not really being there, the challenge being a fraud, and so on.

The best science can do is occasionally demonstrate that we do not need to resort to a supernatural presumption for an explanation

Occasionally? Every claim that has ever been tested has turned out not to be supernatural. People used to believe that pretty much everything that ever happened was supernatural. The gods caused weather, made crops grow, brought fertility, wealth, governed the stars, and so on. Demons, fairies, and so on, caused mishaps and disease, and so on. Science has shown that all of these things have perfectly normal explanations. That's why the popular religions now have just a god of the gaps that never has any interaction with the real world - because everything that used be thought supernatural no longer is. I think we can definitely say it's a bit more than just "occasionally".

Since the rate at which irrationality propagates greatly outpaces the development of rationality

And yet the world today is significantly more rational than that of just 100 years ago.

I wonder if, in the final analysis, Mr. Randi really had any measurable impact on the problem outside of merely being praised for his well-meaning efforts.

That's a fair point. There's really not any way to measure the impact one particular project has had on such a long-standing, hugely diverse, global problem.

In the meantime, pseudoscience continues to flourish like the social cancer it is with every indication that will continue to do so indefinitely.

If in the days of P. T. Barnum there was sucker was born every minute, then today, there's one born every millisecond! Rationality just can't keep pace!

Except that pseudoscience is actually much less prevalent than it was before. Go back a couple of millennia and essentially everything was pseudoscience. The ancient Greeks, for example, get a lot of credit as being the forefathers of science. But virtually everything they thought up was total bollocks since they never bothered to actually test it. And not just didn't think to test, but actively shunned the idea as something no pure thinker would ever stoop to. The only thing they were really good at was maths, since you actually can do that just by thinking. Pretty much everything else was little more than nonsensical pseudoscientific rambling.

Or look at medicine. Just 150 years ago, the man who discovered doctors should probably wash their hands was committed to an insane asylum because he contradicted the completely unsupported idea that all illness was caused by imbalance of humours and required bloodletting to cure. He promptly died of a disease that could have been prevented by hand washing. Proper clinical trials were only invented at a similar time because someone finally came with an idea so incredibly stupid that everyone knew it obviously couldn't do anything (homeopathy), yet somehow seemed as effective as most "real" treatments.

Sure, there's still plenty of nonsense around, but rationality has significantly outpaced it so far. We will likely never completely eliminate pseudoscience and mysticism, but if we carry on the way we're going we'll manage a pretty good job of getting rid of the worst and most harmful instances.
 
The thing is, that's not actually the case. The MDC was created specifically to target frauds, and that's who Randi has always gone after. It's been modified several times to try to prevent the ignorant and delusional from taking part so it can remain focussed on the frauds. It can serve as an educational tool for the ignorant incidentally, but that's not why it's actually there.

I do stand corrected and offer my apologies to anyone whom I may have swayed in thinking my version was correct.
 
Hi

It's not a contest. It's a challenge. You aren't competing against other people for a prize one of you will win, you're trying to meet the criteria someone has given to gain an award.

Perhaps I chose the wrong word. "Challenge" would probably have been a better choice.

I was in no way denigrating Mr. Randi nor his offer.

It simply seems to me that it is impossible to win, whether contest or challenge.

For example, it's like me offering $1 million to anyone who can flap his ears like a bird's wings and fly to the moon and back. It doesn't take Einstein to figure out that nobody can hope to take the prize. I tend to view the challenge in a similar context.
 
The difference is that there's no one who is raising money for the ear flapping moon trip. No one believes that's possible. Few people here believe that any of the other stuff is possible, but tons of other people do. And they claim they do it all the time and they charge people for it. The challenge is targeted at obvious charlatans, but if they never test anyone, it seems like the challenge doesn't exist at all. That's why I like some of the smaller challenges. It's always sad to see someone who seems to be mentally ill being tested for paranormal powers. But the testing groups are not necessarily qualified to say who's mentally ill. And who's to say that one can't be both mentally ill and psychic. Maybe being psychic drives you crazy.

The MDC has many barriers and many hoops to jump through before a test is even possible. It's nice to be able to point to any number of tests which are much easier to access and still no one can pass.

I particularly like the finders fee that the Australian Skeptics and the IIG in the USA offer. Because the MDC and these other challenges are not really targeted at paranormal claimants. They are targeted at the general public. If someone takes the challenge and fails or someone refuses to take the challenge, the average believer should have their beliefs called into question a little bit at least. With the finders fee, the believer has their own (potential) money at stake.

Let's say you are a believer, but you are not psychic yourself. But your friend is very psychic and you've witnessed their power many times. Now you meet an IIG member at a party and you get into a discussion about this topic. The IIG member tells you that your friend can win $50K by proving his psychic ability. Not only that, but you can win $5K as a finders fee by bringing him to the IIG (assuming he wins).

You go to your friend and say, "Hey friend, I could really use $5K and I know you could use $50K. Let's do this test." The friend hems and haws and eventually comes up with a lame excuse. This leaves you thinking that you really want that $5K, so why won't your friend do this for you? The seeds of doubt are sewn.

That's what I think the challenge is about.

Ward
 
I may have said 'rigged', but not on the context of fraud. Not nonsense at all. It's rigged in the sense that those who designed the challenge must fully know that nobody could ever win.

Would any rational person take any this or any other challenge if he knew there was zero probability of winning? But then, would any rational person attempt such a challenge in the first place?

There is at least a minimal probability that some others may learn something from the failures of numerous candidates, so it's not a total waste of time.

The challenge is not a fraud, but even if it were, it still could not be won for exactly the same reasons.

With the growth of the Internet, many charlatans can make a king's ransom in profits from their gullible followers. For this reason they can often snub their noses at any challenge. It looks suspicious when they say they don't need the money or offer other excuses. I have noticed that their reputations don't suffer very much when debunked, so even when exposed, they continue to flourish like drug-resistant bacteria anyway. I don't know of many so-called psychics being ruined by public exposure yet - do you?


My statement that:
"The best science can do is occasionally demonstrate that we do not need to resort to a supernatural presumption for an explanation."
seems quite reasonable.

Science cannot prove anything IS supernatural or NOT supernatural.

Science has never proven anything was NOT supernatural. It only proved a paranormal explanation was unnecessary, since a perfectly natural explanation could account for the observation quite well.

For example, even though I can offer a rational scientific explanation for an earthquake, that does not prove that god didn't do it himself to punish a naughty country for spelling his name wrong. The presumption being that anything nature can do, god can also do. Science simply says, we don't NEED to assume god had anything to do with it at all in order to explain it in purely natural terms of cause/effect, when we have sufficient knowledge. Thus science cannot prove he didn't cause the earthquake, but there's no need to think he did unless that's what one wants to believe.

Not being able to explain something doe not automatically qualify a paranormal presumption. It generally means that the scientists are stumped at the moment, most likely due to insufficient information at the time. Real scientists don't claim to know everything in the universe and will readily admit it.

I'm not so sure I agree with the world being more rational today than 100 years ago. There are still people being burned alive or otherwise sentenced to death for witchcraft and religious beliefs. There are people being arrested by the church for blasphemy for proving a holy relic was a fake. There are still people today who sacrifice children to appease their gods. Colleges are now starting to offer classes in bogus pseudoscience and homeopathy as if it were a valid alternative to real medicine. Drugstores are increasingly carrying homeopathic medicines on the shelves right along side real medicines. To me, that looks like it's spreading, not getting better.

I think there are just a few concentrations of rationality here and there, but on the whole, the world is still dripping with irrationality like a saturated sponge. Some countries have billions of superstitious people who will pass on their beliefs for generations yet to come.

Homeopathy was at one time, not much more effective than many accepted medical practices at the time it came into being. At that time it gained a foothold because there was virtually no experimental proof of how ineffective it was and the level of social education in those days was far below where it is today. Now we know better - or at least some do - yet still homeopathy continues to grow. My niece gives homeopathic "medicines" to her kids - and she has a college education (Master's Degree) - woe to the republic!

I wish there were more Randis. Every bit of education is helpful, but I think he needs a lot more help. It's the frauds who profit from people's misery that I despise the most, like that feminoid of the deep (Silvia the color of poop) who told a family their child was dead and it turned out he was very much alive.

It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it.

:)
 
Pix

It is believed to be impossible to win by those who don't believe in the existence of the paranormal. It is believed to be possible to win by those who apply, as they do believe in the existence of the paranormal. The purpose of the challenge is to give the latter the opportunity to prove that they are right, as that is impossible for the former to prove (though the more applicants try and fail the stronger their case becomes).


Well, you know how lawyers love to split hairs.

I meant rigged in the intellectual sense, not legal context. The outcome seems predetermined before the fact. Impossible.

I was just curious as to how a lawyer might perceive the legality of a challenge that cannot be met and the prize untouchable.

Here's the catch-22:
If someone actually did something that JREF could not explain, the only honest scientific conclusion that could be drawn is that they don't know how it was done. That doesn't prove anything paranormal was accomplished. Science could NOT prove what was done was supernatural under any circumstances. Nor could it prove it wasn't, under any circumstances. Would they believe in the paranormal if that happened?

How could anyone win under those conditions when neither side can possibly prove its case either way.

I'm fully for the challenge. I only wish those famous charlatans with a large following would take it.

The most they can do is prove one way or the other that a claimant cannot do what he or she claims under proper scientific conditions. It's not absolute, but better than nothing and every delusion or phony exposed is a plus.


:)
 
Oy!

Since when can scientific research only be done by scientific institutions?

...

Anyone can do science.



I think that is an extreme oversimplification.

Science is like cooking - not just ANYONE can do it - at least not do it right.

Good science is a discipline that must be properly learned - and it is not easy.

Even though most people can do at least some basic science. Science performed by scientific institutions generally has more credibility.
 
I may have said 'rigged', but not on the context of fraud. Not nonsense at all. It's rigged in the sense that those who designed the challenge must fully know that nobody could ever win.

No, as multiple people have now pointed out to you, the people setting the challenge believe that no-one can ever win. However, hundreds of millions of people around the world believe in all kind of things that would win the challenge if they were actually real.

With the growth of the Internet, many charlatans can make a king's ransom in profits from their gullible followers.

Define "a king's random". There's a very big difference between making a bit of money and making so much money that you can ignore an offer of a million dollars for essentially no effort. There are very few frauds who make anywhere near that much, and an easy million would still be a significant amount even for the biggest ones that I'm aware of.

I have noticed that their reputations don't suffer very much when debunked, so even when exposed, they continue to flourish like drug-resistant bacteria anyway. I don't know of many so-called psychics being ruined by public exposure yet - do you?

Head of Kaz recently? How about Yuri Gellar? Certainly we can't stop every fraud in the world, but that have been successes. Are you suggesting that because we can't immediately make the world perfect we shouldn't bother trying to improve it at all? That's an awfully pessimistic way to live.

I'm not so sure I agree with the world being more rational today than 100 years ago. There are still people being burned alive or otherwise sentenced to death for witchcraft and religious beliefs. There are people being arrested by the church for blasphemy for proving a holy relic was a fake. There are still people today who sacrifice children to appease their gods. Colleges are now starting to offer classes in bogus pseudoscience and homeopathy as if it were a valid alternative to real medicine. Drugstores are increasingly carrying homeopathic medicines on the shelves right along side real medicines. To me, that looks like it's spreading, not getting better.

Are you actually serious? Sure, people are still attacked for witchcraft. Far less and in far fewer countries than just a couple of centuries ago. I'm not aware of any church having the authority to arrest people for anything so I'm not sure what you're referring to here, but go back a few centuries and the church was the ultimate authority and would arrest far more people for far smaller crimes than that. Some people may still sacrifice children, but there used to be whole cultures based on little else. Colleges didn't even used to exist and the majority of people didn't used to get any education at all. And I've already pointed out just how much healthcare has improved in the last century or so. And you're seriously trying to claim that this is all evidence that pseudoscience is spreading? I think you have an awful lot to learn about history if you really think things are worse now than they used to be.

Homeopathy was at one time, not much more effective than many accepted medical practices at the time it came into being. At that time it gained a foothold because there was virtually no experimental proof of how ineffective it was and the level of social education in those days was far below where it is today.

As I already explained, that's not actually how it happened at all. Homeopathy was well known to be complete bollocks as soon as it was invented. It was one of the main drivers in the development of controlled trials precisely because it was known to do nothing, yet appeared to somehow be more effective than doing nothing. It gained a foothold for the same reason any other nonsense gains a foothold - people are often stupid and can be convinced of just about anything by someone who sounds persuasive.

Now we know better - or at least some do - yet still homeopathy continues to grow.

So? As I already noted, a couple of centuries ago, pretty much every single aspect of health care was complete nonsense, often being actively harmful rather than merely ineffective. Today we have better healthcare than has ever existed in the entirety of human history. Yet you're suggesting that because a few forms of quackery persist we're somehow worse off than we used to be?

My niece gives homeopathic "medicines" to her kids - and she has a college education (Master's Degree) - woe to the republic!

And of course, there's also the fact that she probably doesn't use homeopathic remedies at all. The majority of things labelled as homeopathic are actually no such thing, it's become a label that manufacturers just slap on anything regardless of what is actually in them. Not that herbal remedies are generally any better, but at least they're not quite so abjectly stupid as homeopathy since they at least contain something.

I wish there were more Randis. Every bit of education is helpful, but I think he needs a lot more help. It's the frauds who profit from people's misery that I despise the most, like that feminoid of the deep (Silvia the color of poop) who told a family their child was dead and it turned out he was very much alive.

It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it.

Sure. But given this sentiment, I really have to wonder what your point in posting here was. You appear to criticising the very idea of the MDC, saying that everything's getting worse and there's no point in trying to do anything, but then you go on to say that it's a great idea and you wish people were doing more. So which is it? Is everything going to Hell in a handbasket and there's nothing we can do about it, or should people like Randi continue to fight the frauds?
 
Don't know about him, but Uri Geller is still around

Still around, but generally now just claims to be an entertainer, as well as having a much reduced audience. He's gone from being one of the most prominent proponents of woo around to being just another magician with a very limited bag of tricks. I'd definitely count him as more of a success than a failure for rationalism, even if it's not quite as total as it could have been.
 
Perhaps I chose the wrong word. "Challenge" would probably have been a better choice.

I was in no way denigrating Mr. Randi nor his offer.

It simply seems to me that it is impossible to win, whether contest or challenge.

For example, it's like me offering $1 million to anyone who can flap his ears like a bird's wings and fly to the moon and back. It doesn't take Einstein to figure out that nobody can hope to take the prize. I tend to view the challenge in a similar context.

Wrong. The correct analogy would be offering $1 million to someone who claimed they could flap their ears like a bird's wings and fly to the moon and back, if they could demonstrate that feat. The JREF doesn't set the claim, the 'claimant' does.
 
Here's the catch-22:
If someone actually did something that JREF could not explain, the only honest scientific conclusion that could be drawn is that they don't know how it was done. That doesn't prove anything paranormal was accomplished. Science could NOT prove what was done was supernatural under any circumstances. Nor could it prove it wasn't, under any circumstances. Would they believe in the paranormal if that happened?

How could anyone win under those conditions when neither side can possibly prove its case either way.

First of all, the JREF doesn't explain anything in the MDC.

Secondly, if the claim is that the applicant can do something that the JREF *defines* (not arbitrarily, but still completely by themselves) as outside of current scientific understanding, then the challenge is on. The ultimate intellectual issue of "what is paranormal" doesn't matter for the operation of the challenge, it's a non-issue. As long as the JREF thinks that the claimant is attempting something beyond science (or what science could even conceivably understand), then the challenge is on.
 
Here's the catch-22:
If someone actually did something that JREF could not explain, the only honest scientific conclusion that could be drawn is that they don't know how it was done. That doesn't prove anything paranormal was accomplished. Science could NOT prove what was done was supernatural under any circumstances. Nor could it prove it wasn't, under any circumstances. Would they believe in the paranormal if that happened?

How could anyone win under those conditions when neither side can possibly prove its case either way.


Why do you keep repeating this same sort of nonsense? Either you are not paying attention to what's being posted or you are being fundamentally dishonest.

There is no requirement to prove anything as paranormal. Period.
 
Perhaps I chose the wrong word. "Challenge" would probably have been a better choice.

I was in no way denigrating Mr. Randi nor his offer.

It simply seems to me that it is impossible to win, whether contest or challenge.

For example, it's like me offering $1 million to anyone who can flap his ears like a bird's wings and fly to the moon and back. It doesn't take Einstein to figure out that nobody can hope to take the prize. I tend to view the challenge in a similar context.

It's exactly like that. In fact, someone who claimed they could fly by flapping their ears would be eligible to take part in the challenge.

The part I think you are leaving out is that lots of people are making these claims.

Think of it this way: Randi is essentially saying the following:

"There are people out there who claim to be able to do things that are scientifically impossible. I do not believe they can do these things, and I am so certain they cannot that I will give one million dollars of my own money to anyone who can do such a thing."

He will happily give a successful challenger the money. He will let them set the success conditions to be something that satisfies him as being scientifically impossible and them as being something they can do. If the challenge is "rigged", it's the challengers (and reality) that is doing the rigging, not Randi.
 
Why do you keep repeating this same sort of nonsense? Either you are not paying attention to what's being posted or you are being fundamentally dishonest.

There is no requirement to prove anything as paranormal. Period.

Exactly. one of the plausible methods of winning the challenge would be to create a magic trick so exceptionally brilliant that it fooled one of the greatest magicians of the modern era. Exceptionally long odds, but still higher than doing the impossible.
 
It's exactly like that. In fact, someone who claimed they could fly by flapping their ears would be eligible to take part in the challenge.

The part I think you are leaving out is that lots of people are making these claims.

Think of it this way: Randi is essentially saying the following:

"There are people out there who claim to be able to do things that are scientifically impossible. I do not believe they can do these things, and I am so certain they cannot that I will give one million dollars of my own money to anyone who can do such a thing."

He will happily give a successful challenger the money. He will let them set the success conditions to be something that satisfies him as being scientifically impossible and them as being something they can do. If the challenge is "rigged", it's the challengers (and reality) that is doing the rigging, not Randi.

I agree with what you're saying, I just one to correct one small point in the interest of strict accuracy; it's not Randi's own money, it's the JREF's (it was mostly a donation from one individual, if I remember correctly).
 

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