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Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

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So... Occam's Razor tells us a screwdriver is a burglary tool?

What makes you think a screwdriver is not a burglary tool? What would compose the universe of burglary tools if it did not include a screwdriver?


Again, are you connecting the screwdriver with the jewelry? You seem hesitant to answer that question.

Perhaps I am confused, it's my understanding that the screwdriver was found in the locker illegally, along with the jewelry. Why would you wonder why it would be connected to a possible burglary?

And speaking of Occam's Razor... what does it tell us about what happens when a man with aspirations to be a cop and a record of violent and impulsive behavior pursues someone he perceives to be a criminal?

If he had plenty of opportunity beforehand to shoot TM and demurred what makes you think someone who wanted to be a police officer and whose record of 'violent behavior' is so minimal would attack?

There's also indications that he just wanted to keep an eye on TM so he could tell the police who would be arriving momentarily where to go, do you find that a plausible scenario as well?
 
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No, it doesn't. It tells he didn't go after the first guy and that he escaped. It tells that Zimmerman learned when he follows the rules, the a******* get away.

You seem to think that because Zimmerman at one time chose not to behave reckless and irresponsibly (with negative results) that somehow diminishes the fact that on the night he killed Trayvon Martin he was already engaged in reckless and irresponsible behavior prior to their altercation.

If anything, it more clearly establishes Zimmerman's poor judgment, as the earlier incident indicates he was aware that going after a suspect is a bad idea, but on the night he killed Trayvon Martin he decided to do it anyway.

It also gives us some insight as to why he found Martin to be suspicious enough to call the cops, even though in Zimmerman's own words, Martin was just "walking around, looking about". Since this is not suspicious behavior in any way, and since Zimmerman was angry about another black kid who got away, we're left with age and skin color as the reason why he called 911, and grew agitated while on the phone with the dispatcher.

eTA: I'll grant, however, that I had suspected that Zimmerman likely had some, at least, subconscious bias against young black men - it's pretty common in the US, and his suspicions always struck me as otherwise inexplicable.
 
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Does anyone really think that the screwdriver incident is at all probative here? Certainly it is not admissible at trial, since only evidence of a violent disposition could be brought up by the defense. And the defense wouldn't bring it up anyway, because it would open the door for the prosecution to present evidence of Zimmerman's record (which will otherwise be inadmissible).

Of course, what is admissible is not the same as what is relevant. So I should also note that the screwdriver stuff is also irrelevant. Tendency to commit one (nonviolent) crime, even if assumed for the sake of argument, is not indicative of tendency to attack someone violently. And even if we assume that the screwdriver was used or was intended to be used as a burglary tool, that also has no bearing on whether Zimmerman was reasonable to consider Martin suspicious, since Zimmerman didn't know about it.

(I also agree with the judge that Zimmerman's past brushes with the law are not useful in judging whether his account is true, or plausible.)

Unless someone is suggesting that Martin actually was about to burglarize a house, I don't see why anyone is talking about the screwdriver. And I have not seen any suggestion, much less evidence, that this was the case.

The only purpose I can see for bringing up this stuff from the past (about either party) is to reduce sympathy for either Martin or Zimmerman. Or to have a pissing contest. Neither party's past is useful in judging what most likely transpired on the night in question.
Agreed.
 
Does anyone really think that the screwdriver incident is at all probative here?...


Yes, it's probative. As it suggests the victim might previously have been involved in burglaries. Which would make the shooter's story that the victim was acting suspiciously, at least to some extent, more believable.

Just as it would make his claim of self-defense more believable if it happened to be that the victim had previously attacked other people.
 
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I'm not sure why Martin's family would have to offer an explanation. Even if it was relevant to the case, the police were never directly involved, the jewelry was never proven to be stolen, and Martin wasn't even disciplined by his school as a result. The whole thing boils down to the claim of a school official that has been taken as gospel fact to denigrate Trayvon Martin.

What makes you think it will not be relevant to this case? George Zimmerman has been accused of second degree murder, he will have to be proven guilty beyond the doubt of a reasonable person. He called police suggesting that TM was acting strangely and might possibly commit a crime in an area whose property crimes rate had increased alarmingly the past five or so years. Whether or not there is reason to believe TM had recently committed a burglary would seem to be relevant to establishing whether TM may well have been checking out the opportunities for committing a crime while he walked home talking to his girlfriend. Doing all that at once might explain why he wasn't particularly surreptitious about it, and GZ noticed that which is why he called police.

Or we could just discuss what you think will be presented in court as evidence of murder against George Zimmerman. That would probably be a short discussion so it might be more diverting to discuss the possible exculpatory indicators because there's a whole lot more of that to work with and you'll be able to 'win' some of those. :)
 
Does anyone really think that the screwdriver incident is at all probative here?
Yes, it's probative. As it suggests the victim might previously have been involved in burglaries.

...it is pretty obvious that some don't know, or don't care, how the principles of skepticism should inform any given claim.
Quite.

pro·ba·tive/ˈprōbətiv/

Adjective:Having the quality or function of proving or demonstrating something.
 
The only purpose I can see for bringing up this stuff from the past (about either party) is to reduce sympathy for either Martin or Zimmerman. Or to have a pissing contest. Neither party's past is useful in judging what most likely transpired on the night in question.

There is a difference between establishing whether someone is more likely to have committed a crime and what will be used in court to convict them of one. There are damn good reasons some things which suggest the former must be excluded from the latter, that doesn't make them worthless, in fact sometimes it's because they're so powerful (or powerfully misunderstood) they must be excluded lest they pervert the justice system and people get convicted for one event on the evidence of another.

Incidentally, what do you think is the best evidence of murder in this case?
 
  • Suggests/might != the quality or function of proving or demonstrating something.
  • Suggests/might = Causing or tending to preconceived judgment or convictions.
prej·u·di·cial
adj.Causing or tending to preconceived judgment or convictions: Jurors were told not to read the newspapers to avoid being exposed to prejudicial publicity for the defendant.
 
Does anyone really think that the screwdriver incident is at all probative here? Certainly it is not admissible at trial, since only evidence of a violent disposition could be brought up by the defense. And the defense wouldn't bring it up anyway, because it would open the door for the prosecution to present evidence of Zimmerman's record (which will otherwise be inadmissible).

Of course, what is admissible is not the same as what is relevant. So I should also note that the screwdriver stuff is also irrelevant. Tendency to commit one (nonviolent) crime, even if assumed for the sake of argument, is not indicative of tendency to attack someone violently. And even if we assume that the screwdriver was used or was intended to be used as a burglary tool, that also has no bearing on whether Zimmerman was reasonable to consider Martin suspicious, since Zimmerman didn't know about it.

(I also agree with the judge that Zimmerman's past brushes with the law are not useful in judging whether his account is true, or plausible.)

Unless someone is suggesting that Martin actually was about to burglarize a house, I don't see why anyone is talking about the screwdriver. And I have not seen any suggestion, much less evidence, that this was the case.

The only purpose I can see for bringing up this stuff from the past (about either party) is to reduce sympathy for either Martin or Zimmerman. Or to have a pissing contest. Neither party's past is useful in judging what most likely transpired on the night in question.
GZ called the police because he suspected that TM might have been a burglar.

Are you willing to accept GZ's claims that TM was acting genuinely "suspicious"?

The state's affidavit says that GZ "profiled" TM. Obviously many in the public agree.

Is GZ allowed to defend himself from that accusation?

What evidence is there to even support that accusation?
 
Yes, it's probative. As it suggests the victim might previously have been involved in burglaries. Which would make the shooter's story that the victim was acting suspiciously, at least to some extent, more believable.

Just as it would make his claim of self-defense more believable if it happened to be that the victim had previously attacked other people.

Unless Zimmerman knew about it, it has no bearing on whether or not he had good reason to be suspicious of Martin. The only question that is at all relevant is whether Zimmerman was reasonable to be suspicious (although the only question that is really going to matter at trial is whether Zimmerman reasonably feared death or serious injury when he fired the shot). Things that Zimmerman did not know at the time are not helpful in answering that question.

This is the first time I have seen it suggested that there is any likelihood that Martin actually was about to commit a burglary. We know Martin was staying nearby and had walked to the store, and was returning home. Given that very plausible explanation of Martin's behavior prior to Zimmerman following him, how exactly does the screwdriver incident constitute a reasonable basis for concluding that it was even remotely likely that Martin was about to burglarize anyone's house?

Zimmerman was suspicious based on what he knew at the time, and what he observed. We have the benefit of knowledge Zimmerman didn't have, so this is not to judge Zimmerman. But which is more relevant, the screwdriver thing or the fact that Martin was staying in the neighborhood? If Zimmerman had known that Martin was staying in the neighborhood, then I don't think he would have found him suspicious, or at least not suspicious enough to follow him. Even if he had also known about the screwdriver thing at school. That is also my attitude, since I know both of those things. Do you disagree with that attitude? Do you think I, who have this knowledge that Zimmerman did not have at the time, would be reasonable in thinking (now, in hindsight) that Martin was actually up to no good because of the screwdriver thing? Because if not, then it is indeed irrelevant.

For the record, I am not saying this because I am of the opinion that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin. From the call, it seems that Zimmerman's suspicion was based on
(1) the fact that he knows the people who live in the neighborhood and didn't recognize Martin,

(2) that Martin was walking in the rain (which looks more suspicious in light of point (1), since Zimmerman believed that Martin did not live in the neighborhood),

(3) that Martin was walking in a way that I would describe as "sauntering." It is that way silly teenage boys who want to appear tough walk. I saw it all the time as a teacher, and personally would think nothing of it. But people who have never worked around kids that age tend to interpret it as "thuggish." And,

(4) the fact that there had been a series of burglaries recently.

​
Given the above, I do not think Zimmerman was unreasonable to be suspicious. Reason (3) is not a good reason, but the others are reasonable. And they were reasonable even if in fact Martin was doing nothing wrong. I don't think Zimmerman acted wisely on his suspicion, but he had a legitimate basis for his initial suspicion. The screwdriver thing would only be relevant if there were some other reason to believe Martin actually was up to no good that night. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that. I don't think even Zimmerman now thinks that Martin actually was a burglar. I doubt he would have apologized to the family if he believed that. I think he thinks it was a tragic misunderstanding that led to a situation where he was in fear of his life and had to shoot in self defense.
 
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What makes you think a screwdriver is not a burglary tool?

I don't know... how about the definition of the word "screwdriver"?

What would compose the universe of burglary tools if it did not include a screwdriver?

You do understand that "a screwdriver can be used as a burglary tool" and "a screwdriver is a burglary tool" are wholly different claims, right?

Perhaps I am confused, it's my understanding that the screwdriver was found in the locker illegally, along with the jewelry. Why would you wonder why it would be connected to a possible burglary?

Because the police were not brought in and the people who had their home broken into and their jewelry stolen apparently never reported it to the police since the jewelry was never determined to actually be stolen.

If he had plenty of opportunity beforehand to shoot TM and demurred what makes you think someone who wanted to be a police officer and whose record of 'violent behavior' is so minimal would attack?

I don't recall saying or even implying he would "attack". It's the difference between Zimmerman suddenly deciding to completely cease his reckless and irresponsible behavior only to then fall prey to an unprovoked assault, and Zimmerman continuing with his reckless and irresponsible behavior and perhaps provoking the altercation himself.

There's also indications that he just wanted to keep an eye on TM so he could tell the police who would be arriving momentarily where to go, do you find that a plausible scenario as well?

I know it's a fun game to keep referring to Zimmerman's actions in the most innocuous terms possible so we can sweep under the rug the fact that what he was doing was actually reckless and irresponsible.

If we couch it in terms of "just keeping an eye on Martin", why it sounds completely harmless and even somewhat heroic. But it conveniently leaves out the fact that Zimmerman also happened to be armed, and both following Martin and being armed while doing it were two things Zimmerman as a neighborhood watch captain should not have been doing.

That being said, yes, I do find it plausible that Zimmerman was only attempting to keep an eye on Martin.

Quid pro quo: Do you think it's reasonable to assume that someone engaged in reckless and irresponsible behavior in one moment, would continue in that behavior in the next?

What makes you think it will not be relevant to this case? George Zimmerman has been accused of second degree murder, he will have to be proven guilty beyond the doubt of a reasonable person. He called police suggesting that TM was acting strangely and might possibly commit a crime in an area whose property crimes rate had increased alarmingly the past five or so years. Whether or not there is reason to believe TM had recently committed a burglary would seem to be relevant to establishing whether TM may well have been checking out the opportunities for committing a crime while he walked home talking to his girlfriend. Doing all that at once might explain why he wasn't particularly surreptitious about it, and GZ noticed that which is why he called police.

As Martin actually has no criminal record - for burglary or otherwise - and since he's not actually the one on trial, I doubt very much that the suspicion that he might have committed burglary at one time will be admissible as evidence.

And speaking of plausibility, how plausible is it that Martin was casing houses in his own father's neighborhood while walking home from the store?

Or we could just discuss what you think will be presented in court as evidence of murder against George Zimmerman. That would probably be a short discussion so it might be more diverting to discuss the possible exculpatory indicators because there's a whole lot more of that to work with and you'll be able to 'win' some of those. :)

I'm not the one posting Youtube videos of Martin supposedly "refereeing" fights or the Twitter feed of his brother "proving" he assaulted a bus driver all in an attempt to portray Martin in a negative light. I'm sorry if offends your sensibilities if I wish to counter such attempts.
 
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GZ called the police because he suspected that TM might have been a burglar.

Are you willing to accept GZ's claims that TM was acting genuinely "suspicious"?

The state's affidavit says that GZ "profiled" TM. Obviously many in the public agree.

Is GZ allowed to defend himself from that accusation?

What evidence is there to even support that accusation?

GZ had no prior knowledge of anything about TM. That we now know he had some problems at school doesn't mean GZ suspected TM of acting "suspicious" because of that. He was profiling a young man, wearing a hoodie. I won't even bring race into the discussion, how about that. A young man, wearing a hoodie, talking on his phone to his GF, making his way home from the store.

I wear hoodies all the time. I talk on my phone. Sometimes I don't take the most direct route to where I'm going. Are those legitimate reasons to suspect me of being up to no good at 7pm?

Since the judge at the bond hearing dismissed GZ's prior incidents, I don't see how anything about what TM ever did in his life will be allowed if this goes to trial.
 
What size was the screwdriver? Was it a flathead or phillips? Obviously this matters, since his possession of a screwdriver at a time other than the night he was killed tells us what a violent person he was. Does anyone who claims it was a burglary tool know anything about it?

Bonus question, and one that I've been pondering.

Ignore the question of what Zimmerman was feeling or fearing or thinking.

Does anyone think that in actual fact, Trayvon Martin was attempting to murder George Zimmerman?

Just a yes or no please. Explanations are ok, but include a yes or no.
 
GZ had no prior knowledge of anything about TM. That we now know he had some problems at school doesn't mean GZ suspected TM of acting "suspicious" because of that. He was profiling a young man, wearing a hoodie. I won't even bring race into the discussion, how about that. A young man, wearing a hoodie, talking on his phone to his GF, making his way home from the store.

I wear hoodies all the time. I talk on my phone. Sometimes I don't take the most direct route to where I'm going. Are those legitimate reasons to suspect me of being up to no good at 7pm?

Since the judge at the bond hearing dismissed GZ's prior incidents, I don't see how anything about what TM ever did in his life will be allowed if this goes to trial.
Dismissed them for the purposes of the bond hearing. The prosecutor should be able to get some of them back in at trial to address credibility.
 
Dismissed them for the purposes of the bond hearing. The prosecutor should be able to get some of them back in at trial to address credibility.

I seriously doubt that, unless Zimmerman opens the door by trying to raise Martin's character as an issue. And I don't think that is even a possibility, since only evidence that Martin had a violent character would be admissible for that purpose, and I don't know of any such evidence.

From what the judge said at the bond hearing, I'm thinking he will rule that there is little if any probative value in Zimmerman's past brushes with the law, and that they would be significantly prejudicial. Since he has no felonies, and since none of the charges ever made against him involved making false statements, I am pretty confident they will not be admissible.
 
(1) the fact that he knows the people who live in the neighborhood and didn't recognize Martin,

I'm counting about 200 households in the gated community - assuming four two homes per building unit. There's little to no chance that he knows everyone who lives in that community. Also, quite a few of the witnesses don't seem to recognize him.

(2) that Martin was walking in the rain (which looks more suspicious in light of point (1), since Zimmerman believed that Martin did not live in the neighborhood),

But if it's raining, then why is Zimmerman dry except, according to the police, his back? And why is the official rainfall total 0.02"?

(3) that Martin was walking in a way that I would describe as "sauntering." It is that way silly teenage boys who want to appear tough walk. I saw it all the time as a teacher, and personally would think nothing of it. But people who have never worked around kids that age tend to interpret it as "thuggish." And

This isn't evident based on what we know now, and, as you say, a poor reason to find someone suspicious.

(4) the fact that there had been a series of burglaries recently.

But this apparently has nothing to do with what Martin was doing. Now, if Martin had been running up to windows and peering into them, then that would be one thing, but at 7pm on a Sunday, that's likely a peeping Tom, not a burglar. And in any case, Zimmerman only says that Martin was "looking at houses", which again, is what people do when they're walking down the street.

I'm sorry, but I've seen this sort of thing a lot, and both myself and many of my friends (all of them black) have been harassed by police, because we were walking down the street and some idiot (whether nosy resident or over eager cop) decided that we were "suspicious". I see evidence that Zimmerman did this, and no evidence that he didn't.
 
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