Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[johnny karate]

It's not. I'm just having fun watching johnny try to explain the unexplainable.

It's adorable to watch you try to make me disprove the claim that Martin was carrying a burglary tool and stolen jewelry as if you weren't aware that that's not at all how it works.

So the screwdriver and the jewelry... are you claiming the two are somehow related? That perhaps Martin was involved in the burglarizing of homes to steal jewelry?

 

[WildCat]

Well, that certainly explains why he was cussing about how "they always get away", and why he decided to pursue Martin personally.

The slightest act of violence in Zimmerman's past is proof he decided to chase down Martin himself and detain him. Likewise, any acts of passiveness in Zimmerman's past is proof that he decided to chase down Martin himself and detain him.

Is this correct, or not?

 

[nadsat]

Well, that certainly explains why he was cussing about how "they always get away", and why he decided to pursue Martin personally.

it also paints a picture of a person afraid/not willing to approach a suspicious person.

next two paragraph:

On February 6, the home of another Twin Lakes resident, Tatiana Demeacis, was burglarized. Two roofers working directly across the street said they saw two African-American men lingering in the yard at the time of the break-in. A new laptop and some gold jewelry were stolen. One of the roofers called police the next day after spotting one of the suspects among a group of male teenagers, three black and one white, on bicycles.

Police found Demeacis's laptop in the backpack of 18-year-old Emmanuel Burgess, police reports show, and charged him with dealing in stolen property. Burgess was the same man Zimmerman had spotted on February 2.

 

[WildCat]

It's adorable to watch you try to make me disprove the claim that Martin was carrying a burglary tool and stolen jewelry as if you weren't aware that that's not at all how it works.

So the screwdriver and the jewelry... are you claiming the two are somehow related? That perhaps Martin was involved in the burglarizing of homes to steal jewelry?

I think Martin had a cache of jewelry he could not explain, and he also had a large screwdriver he couldn't explain.

I wonder what Occam's Razor says?

 

[johnny karate]

Well, that certainly explains why he was cussing about how "they always get away", and why he decided to pursue Martin personally.

Or actually "these a******* always get away". In Zimmerman's mind, Martin was already an a******* that was going to get away.

"I don't know what he's doing. I don't want to approach, him personally," Zimmerman said in the call, which was recorded. The dispatcher advised him that a patrol car was on the way. By the time police arrived, according to the dispatch report, the suspect had fled.

I guess Zimmerman had had enough of that.

 

[johnny karate]

I think Martin had a cache of jewelry he could not explain, and he also had a large screwdriver he couldn't explain.

I wonder what Occam's Razor says?

So... Occam's Razor tells us a screwdriver is a burglary tool?

Again, are you connecting the screwdriver with the jewelry? You seem hesitant to answer that question.

And speaking of Occam's Razor... what does it tell us about what happens when a man with aspirations to be a cop and a record of violent and impulsive behavior pursues someone he perceives to be a criminal?

 

[johnny karate]

The slightest act of violence in Zimmerman's past is proof he decided to chase down Martin himself and detain him. Likewise, any acts of passiveness in Zimmerman's past is proof that he decided to chase down Martin himself and detain him.

Is this correct, or not?

If Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle, you might have point. But since we know he actually did pursue Martin, the only question remaining is whether or not it would be reasonable to assume he continued to pursue him.

 

[johnny karate]

it also paints a picture of a person afraid/not willing to approach a suspicious person.

And yet there's no question that Zimmerman did not express hesitancy when he perceived Martin to be "getting away". He was immediately out of his car and after him. I don't know, maybe he forgot to bring his gun on the night you're referencing.

Edit: From your article:

The last time Zimmerman had called police, to report Burgess, he followed protocol and waited for police to arrive. They were too late, and Burgess got away.

This time, Zimmerman was not so patient, and he disregarded police advice against pursuing Martin.

"These a*******," he muttered in an aside, "they always get away."

Yeah, it looks like Zimmerman learned his lesson about just waiting for the cops to show up.

 

[WildCat]

So... Occam's Razor tells us a screwdriver is a burglary tool?

Again, are you connecting the screwdriver with the jewelry? You seem hesitant to answer that question.

And speaking of Occam's Razor... what does it tell us about what happens when a man with aspirations to be a cop and a record of violent and impulsive behavior pursues someone he perceives to be a criminal?

Occam's Razor johnny, what's the most likely reason for having a cache of jewelry and a large screwdriver with no explanation as to why?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Occam's Razor johnny, what's the most likely reason for having a cache of jewelry and a large screwdriver with no explanation as to why?

He was an aspiring jewelry designer and he used the screwdriver to work with the jewelry as he painstakingly crafted it by by hand?

 

[nadsat]

And yet there's no question that Zimmerman did not express hesitancy when he perceived Martin to be "getting away". He was immediately out of his car and after him. I don't know, maybe he forgot to bring his gun on the night you're referencing.

Edit: From your article:

Yeah, it looks like Zimmerman learned his lesson about just waiting for the cops to show up.

No one denied he got out of his truck in an attempt to keep an eye on Martin (he said he lost sight of him). What I've highlighted supports Zim's assertion that Martin was the one who approached him, not the other way around.

I think this thread has been through this follow to keep an eye on vs approach distinction argument multiple times.

 

[johnny karate]

Occam's Razor johnny, what's the most likely reason for having a cache of jewelry and a large screwdriver with no explanation as to why?

I would say it's because the person in question burglarized someone's home and stole their jewelry. Agree?

 

[lane99]

argumentum ad infinitum this!

Does anybody else just check back at JREF on a rare occasion to confirm that the closest things to skeptics on this forum are some people who have adopted the terminology and appearance of skeptics, to support their preconceived points of view?

In this thread and every other one I look at, there is nothing but standard "right vs. left" argument, disguised as a discussion of "evidence."

Quick, somebody "disprove" an argument solely by labelling it as a type of invalid argument, just to confirm I'm in the right place.

Whether it's a simple as "left vs. right" polemic at play, I don't know. But it is pretty obvious that some don't know, or don't care, how the principles of skepticism should inform any given claim.

I think the quintessential example of that, in this thread, is seen in how several posters have fumbled over themselves trying to bestow credibility upon the junk science voice analysis that was used to claim- with no less than "scientific certainty"- that the screams heard on the 911 tape were not that of the shooter.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

No one denied he got out of his truck in an attempt to keep an eye on Martin (he said he lost sight of him). What I've highlighted supports Zim's assertion that Martin was the one who approached him, not the other way around.

Wait a minute, didn't you read wildcat's analysis of that point? If GZ refused to approach the last guy, using reverso logic, that proves that this time he did approach TM.

This thread has turned into an entertaining comedy routine at this point. It's like watching bears bat around squirrels to keep themselves humored.

 

[crimresearch]

"Four hundred n' ninety seven n' a half feet o' rope!

Whadaya got that for?"


"I just carry it."

Careful, that got a whole bunch of posts moved to AAH recently.

 

[Kaosium]

Occam's Razor johnny, what's the most likely reason for having a cache of jewelry and a large screwdriver with no explanation as to why?

Apologies in advance for not reading every page of the thread and knowing the answer to this, but I've been wondering about it and haven't seen an answer to this question, it doesn't seem to have been a priority for the person who wrote this story to find out.

If the jewelry belonged to a friend and was confiscated, it would seem apparent that the friend might want it back and would go claim it and clear Traymon of any suspicion. Has that happened, and if not what explanation has been offered by the supporters of TM's family?

 

[johnny karate]

No one denied he got out of his truck in an attempt to keep an eye on Martin (he said he lost sight of him). What I've highlighted supports Zim's assertion that Martin was the one who approached him, not the other way around.

No, it doesn't. It tells he didn't go after the first guy and that he escaped. It tells that Zimmerman learned when he follows the rules, the a******* get away.

You seem to think that because Zimmerman at one time chose not to behave recklessly and irresponsibly (with negative results) that somehow diminishes the fact that on the night he killed Trayvon Martin he was already engaged in reckless and irresponsible behavior prior to their altercation.

If anything, it more clearly establishes Zimmerman's poor judgment, as the earlier incident indicates he was aware that going after a suspect is a bad idea, but on the night he killed Trayvon Martin he decided to do it anyway.

 

[johnny karate]

This thread has turned into an entertaining comedy routine at this point. It's like watching bears bat around squirrels to keep themselves humored.

I'm not sure how that makes sense.

Maybe it does in a world where "loaded" and "ambiguous" are synonymous terms, or the phrase "meander a guess" means something.

 

[johnny karate]

Apologies in advance for not reading every page of the thread and knowing the answer to this, but I've been wondering about it and haven't seen an answer to this question, it doesn't seem to have been a priority for the person who wrote this story to find out.

If the jewelry belonged to a friend and was confiscated, it would seem apparent that the friend might want it back and would go claim it and clear Traymon of any suspicion. Has that happened, and if not what explanation has been offered by the supporters of TM's family?

I'm not sure why Martin's family would have to offer an explanation. Even if it was relevant to the case, the police were never directly involved, the jewelry was never proven to be stolen, and Martin wasn't even disciplined by his school as a result. The whole thing boils down to the claim of a school official that has been taken as gospel fact to denigrate Trayvon Martin.

 

[Freddy]

So... Occam's Razor tells us a screwdriver is a burglary tool?

Again, are you connecting the screwdriver with the jewelry? You seem hesitant to answer that question.

And speaking of Occam's Razor... what does it tell us about what happens when a man with aspirations to be a cop and a record of violent and impulsive behavior pursues someone he perceives to be a criminal?

Does anyone really think that the screwdriver incident is at all probative here? Certainly it is not admissible at trial, since only evidence of a violent disposition could be brought up by the defense. And the defense wouldn't bring it up anyway, because it would open the door for the prosecution to present evidence of Zimmerman's record (which will otherwise be inadmissible).

Of course, what is admissible is not the same as what is relevant. So I should also note that the screwdriver stuff is also irrelevant. Tendency to commit one (nonviolent) crime, even if assumed for the sake of argument, is not indicative of tendency to attack someone violently. And even if we assume that the screwdriver was used or was intended to be used as a burglary tool, that also has no bearing on whether Zimmerman was reasonable to consider Martin suspicious, since Zimmerman didn't know about it.

(I also agree with the judge that Zimmerman's past brushes with the law are not useful in judging whether his account is true, or plausible.)

Unless someone is suggesting that Martin actually was about to burglarize a house, I don't see why anyone is talking about the screwdriver. And I have not seen any suggestion, much less evidence, that this was the case.

The only purpose I can see for bringing up this stuff from the past (about either party) is to reduce sympathy for either Martin or Zimmerman. Or to have a pissing contest. Neither party's past is useful in judging what most likely transpired on the night in question.