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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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The key to denial is ignoring every explanation - or twisting specific explanations into strawmen, as you continually do concerning the deportation and extermination process, as SnakeTongue did with his claim that anyone has argued Jews murdered Jews, and as your chum Dogzilla tried doing with his lies about what I argued concerning the Jaeger report. In fact, all these issues are quite well known and explained in many sources, yet they are a mystery to you because you are subliterate on the topic.

Sorry, Team Holocaust says Jewish men performed the labor that resulted in the deaths of millions of Jewish children, women, and men.

I say they wouldn't and couldn't have been made to do that and didn't.


And I'm subliterate? I'll stick to thinking the best of those Jewish men by saying they couldn't have been forced to kill millions of Jewish children, women, and men.
 
Sorry, Team Holocaust says Jewish men performed the labor that resulted in the deaths of millions of Jewish children, women, and men.

I say they wouldn't and couldn't have been made to do that and didn't.

And I'm subliterate? I'll stick to thinking the best of those Jewish men by saying they couldn't have been forced to kill millions of Jewish children, women, and men.
This is an argument no one here has made. It's a straw man. Performing labour (please specify) that involved Jews being killed is not the same as actively killing them, any more than a tobacco company is responsible for someone catching their house on fire when they fall asleep smoking.

Clayton, what hospital or hospitals did you refer to?
 
Sorry, Team Holocaust says Jewish men performed the labor that resulted in the deaths of millions of Jewish children, women, and men.

I say they wouldn't and couldn't have been made to do that and didn't.

Well, firstly you have to establish that the labour done led directly to someone else's death, rather than performing a secondary function. Then you have to make sure that the tasks weren't carried out by mixed labour squads.

At Auschwitz, Jewish and non-Jewish prisoners alike

  • picked up luggage left on the 'ramp' - no direct deaths caused
  • helped elderly victims off the trains - no direct deaths caused
  • helped direct victims into line to be selected - no direct deaths caused


At all the camps, Jewish Sonderkommandos performed the following tasks

  • picking up clothes left behind by victims in undressing spaces - no direct deaths caused
  • cutting hair from female victims before gassing (Treblinka) - no direct deaths caused
  • cutting hair from female victims after gassing (Auschwitz) - no direct deaths caused
  • extracting gold teeth from victims after gassing - no direct deaths caused
  • helping victims undress - no direct deaths caused
  • removing bodies from gas chamber - no direct deaths caused
  • transporting bodies to crematoria or open air pyres or graves - no direct deaths caused
  • burning bodies in crematoria or on open air pyres - no direct deaths caused

Killing was done exclusively by Germans or collaborators (at the Reinhard camps).

The Sonderkommandos did not kill. They were forced to perform various forms of labour that contributed to the running of the extermination operation. They knew that if they refused, they would be killed on the spot. They also knew that if they violated all sorts of other rules or fell foul of Nazi whims, they would be killed on the spot. They knew that if they became weak and could not work, they would be killed. They knew they were in camps surrounded by barbed wire and manned by men with guns, who would kill them if they tried to escape.

There was a very high turnover rate among the Sonderkommandos because the Nazis killed so many before they had time to orient themselves and make a choice beyond simple animalistic survival. There was a high suicide rate among the Sonderkommandos reflecting the fact that the work was horrific. Some refused to work and were shot for their pains. An entire contingent of Jews assigned to the Birkenau crematoria refused and was killed in the summer of 1944. The Sonderkommandos revolted in three camps (Birkenau, Treblinka and Sobibor) and there were people who escaped from all the camps.

We have perfectly good documents, accepted as genuine by all leading 'revisionists', indicating that there were up to 900 prisoners working in the Birkenau crematoria in the summer and early autumn of 1944. Please tell us whether these prisoners volunteered, whether they were all Jewish, and how they should have reacted if all they were doing was simply cremating large numbers of bodies. Please tell us what psychological difference it would make to a 'stoker' of a crematorium furnace loading the bodies in whether the bodies being burned had died of starvation and disease or had died of gassing.

And I'm subliterate? I'll stick to thinking the best of those Jewish men by saying they couldn't have been forced to kill millions of Jewish children, women, and men.

since Jewish men weren't forced to kill millions of Jewish children, women and men, your incredulity is irrelevant.
 
Five bucks says Clay dismisses this with less than two paragraphs of text, almost none of it with any meaningful content.
 
Well, firstly you have to establish that the labour done led directly to someone else's death, rather than performing a secondary function. Then you have to make sure that the tasks weren't carried out by mixed labour squads.

At Auschwitz, Jewish and non-Jewish prisoners alike

  • picked up luggage left on the 'ramp' - no direct deaths caused
  • helped elderly victims off the trains - no direct deaths caused
  • helped direct victims into line to be selected - no direct deaths caused


At all the camps, Jewish Sonderkommandos performed the following tasks

  • picking up clothes left behind by victims in undressing spaces - no direct deaths caused
  • cutting hair from female victims before gassing (Treblinka) - no direct deaths caused
  • cutting hair from female victims after gassing (Auschwitz) - no direct deaths caused
  • extracting gold teeth from victims after gassing - no direct deaths caused
  • helping victims undress - no direct deaths caused
  • removing bodies from gas chamber - no direct deaths caused
  • transporting bodies to crematoria or open air pyres or graves - no direct deaths caused
  • burning bodies in crematoria or on open air pyres - no direct deaths caused

Killing was done exclusively by Germans or collaborators (at the Reinhard camps).

The Sonderkommandos did not kill. They were forced to perform various forms of labour that contributed to the running of the extermination operation. They knew that if they refused, they would be killed on the spot. They also knew that if they violated all sorts of other rules or fell foul of Nazi whims, they would be killed on the spot. They knew that if they became weak and could not work, they would be killed. They knew they were in camps surrounded by barbed wire and manned by men with guns, who would kill them if they tried to escape.

There was a very high turnover rate among the Sonderkommandos because the Nazis killed so many before they had time to orient themselves and make a choice beyond simple animalistic survival. There was a high suicide rate among the Sonderkommandos reflecting the fact that the work was horrific. Some refused to work and were shot for their pains. An entire contingent of Jews assigned to the Birkenau crematoria refused and was killed in the summer of 1944. The Sonderkommandos revolted in three camps (Birkenau, Treblinka and Sobibor) and there were people who escaped from all the camps.

We have perfectly good documents, accepted as genuine by all leading 'revisionists', indicating that there were up to 900 prisoners working in the Birkenau crematoria in the summer and early autumn of 1944. Please tell us whether these prisoners volunteered, whether they were all Jewish, and how they should have reacted if all they were doing was simply cremating large numbers of bodies. Please tell us what psychological difference it would make to a 'stoker' of a crematorium furnace loading the bodies in whether the bodies being burned had died of starvation and disease or had died of gassing.
Nice fiction.
 
Five bucks says Clay dismisses this with less than two paragraphs of text, almost none of it with any meaningful content.

Just two words - and also he forgot to describe Nick as verbose and count and post the number of words in Nick's post, which I myself found apt, as it neatly supported my point that what is myserious and garbled by Clayton is actually known precisely by people who actually study the matter.
 
I'd ask for whatever evidence you have that counters Mr Terry's fine synopsis, but it would likely contain less fact than the latest Black Library novel, more rhetoric than a 19th century political speech and more likely to induce nausea than Twilight....
 
This is an argument no one here has made. It's a straw man.

Nobody here has argued that Jews performed labor that benefited the process of killing the Jews? Nobody has argued that Jews helped the new arrivals get off the trains? Nobody has argued that Jews harvested the hair of to-be-gassed Jews? Nobody has argued that Jews sorted the clothing and other valuables of Jews who were murdered? Nobody has argued that Jews pulled dead Jews out of the gas chambers, pulled the gold teeth from their mouths and then put them into ovens? You should familiarize yourself with the history you so willingly embrace.

Performing labour (please specify) that involved Jews being killed is not the same as actively killing them, any more than a tobacco company is responsible for someone catching their house on fire when they fall asleep smoking.

That's the dumbest analogy I've seen yet. A proper analogy would be Performing labour (please specify) that involved Jews being killed is not the same as actively killing them, any more than a Ukrainian Red Army soldier taken prisoner by the Germans who chooses to work as a guard at a death camp instead of starve to death himself is responsible when Jews are killed at the camp. Well guess what? That guard can be held criminally responsible for the deaths that occurred there. The fact is that the Jews performed necessary labor without which the holocaust would have ground to a halt and they are all accessories to murder.

If you're going to argue that Jews were innocent because they didn't actually drop the Zyklon B into the gas chamber, be sure an apply that standard across the board.


Clayton, what hospital or hospitals did you refer to?

Maybe the one where useless eaters destined to be exterminated unless they could work were allowed to recuperate following surgery on an infected foot until the advance of the Red Army forced them out of their hospital bed and onto a death march across Poland and Germany.
 
Just two words - and also he forgot to describe Nick as verbose and count and post the number of words in Nick's post, which I myself found apt, as it neatly supported my point that what is myserious and garbled by Clayton is actually known precisely by people who actually study the matter.

511 words in the main bit, there were.
 
Nobody here has argued that Jews performed labor that benefited the process of killing the Jews? Nobody has argued that Jews helped the new arrivals get off the trains? Nobody has argued that Jews harvested the hair of to-be-gassed Jews? Nobody has argued that Jews sorted the clothing and other valuables of Jews who were murdered? Nobody has argued that Jews pulled dead Jews out of the gas chambers, pulled the gold teeth from their mouths and then put them into ovens? You should familiarize yourself with the history you so willingly embrace.

That's the dumbest analogy I've seen yet. A proper analogy would be Performing labour (please specify) that involved Jews being killed is not the same as actively killing them, any more than a Ukrainian Red Army soldier taken prisoner by the Germans who chooses to work as a guard at a death camp instead of starve to death himself is responsible when Jews are killed at the camp. Well guess what? That guard can be held criminally responsible for the deaths that occurred there. The fact is that the Jews performed necessary labor without which the holocaust would have ground to a halt and they are all accessories to murder.

If you're going to argue that Jews were innocent because they didn't actually drop the Zyklon B into the gas chamber, be sure an apply that standard across the board.

There is a world of difference between the Ukrainian guards and the Jewish forced labourers. The Trawnikis all had a choice at some point about whether they wanted to serve or not. When they arrived at the camps, they all had a choice about continuing to serve; they could have deserted, and quite a few did, which meant they weren't generally held criminally responsible since by their actions they had shown they did not want to continue participating in an obviously criminal enterprise. The ones that stayed all had to shoot people, and there is no evidence that more than a minority tried to avoid doing so. The ones that stayed beat and killed prisoners.

Where is the evidence that Jewish forced labourers were free to choose between serving or not serving? Where is the evidence that Jewish forced labourers had to kill anyone directly? Where is the evidence that they had guns? Where is the evidence that Jewish forced labourers beat and killed prisoners? There isn't any.

I'm positive you've tried this argument on before, been answered, and then ignored the answers, only to bring the argument up again months later, and be answered, and no doubt you'll ignore the answers all over again. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Maybe the one where useless eaters destined to be exterminated unless they could work were allowed to recuperate following surgery on an infected foot until the advance of the Red Army forced them out of their hospital bed and onto a death march across Poland and Germany.

Or maybe you don't fully grasp the history of Auschwitz and how things changed from 1942-44.
 
Well, firstly you have to establish that the labour done led directly to someone else's death, rather than performing a secondary function. Then you have to make sure that the tasks weren't carried out by mixed labour squads.

At Auschwitz, Jewish and non-Jewish prisoners alike

  • picked up luggage left on the 'ramp' - no direct deaths caused
  • helped elderly victims off the trains - no direct deaths caused
  • helped direct victims into line to be selected - no direct deaths caused


At all the camps, Jewish Sonderkommandos performed the following tasks

  • picking up clothes left behind by victims in undressing spaces - no direct deaths caused
  • cutting hair from female victims before gassing (Treblinka) - no direct deaths caused
  • cutting hair from female victims after gassing (Auschwitz) - no direct deaths caused
  • extracting gold teeth from victims after gassing - no direct deaths caused
  • helping victims undress - no direct deaths caused
  • removing bodies from gas chamber - no direct deaths caused
  • transporting bodies to crematoria or open air pyres or graves - no direct deaths caused
  • burning bodies in crematoria or on open air pyres - no direct deaths caused

Killing was done exclusively by Germans or collaborators (at the Reinhard camps).

So only the people directly responsible for introducing gas into the gas chambers, either by dropping bug spray into the room or actually firing up the captured Soviet submarine engine, are murderers?

The Sonderkommandos did not kill. They were forced to perform various forms of labour that contributed to the running of the extermination operation. They knew that if they refused, they would be killed on the spot. They also knew that if they violated all sorts of other rules or fell foul of Nazi whims, they would be killed on the spot. They knew that if they became weak and could not work, they would be killed. They knew they were in camps surrounded by barbed wire and manned by men with guns, who would kill them if they tried to escape.

How did they know this?


There was a very high turnover rate among the Sonderkommandos because the Nazis killed so many before they had time to orient themselves and make a choice beyond simple animalistic survival. There was a high suicide rate among the Sonderkommandos reflecting the fact that the work was horrific.

How high was the turnover rate? What percentage of the sondercommando had only been on the job for a day or two at any given time?

How many sondercommando killed themselves?


Some refused to work and were shot for their pains. An entire contingent of Jews assigned to the Birkenau crematoria refused and was killed in the summer of 1944.

Why didn't others refuse to work? They all knew they were going to be killed after a few weeks anyway.


The Sonderkommandos revolted in three camps (Birkenau, Treblinka and Sobibor) and there were people who escaped from all the camps.

We have perfectly good documents, accepted as genuine by all leading 'revisionists', indicating that there were up to 900 prisoners working in the Birkenau crematoria in the summer and early autumn of 1944.

What is the relevance of documents 'accepted as genuine by all leading revisionists' pertaining to the work force at Birkinau? Nobody claims there wasn't a place called Birkinau, that there were not crematoria there or that prisoners worked as trusties at the facility. As a side note, how many guards were supervising those workers? Nine hundred heads that need to have a gun pointed at each of them for motivation would require a lot of hands to hold a lot of guns.


Please tell us whether these prisoners volunteered, whether they were all Jewish, and how they should have reacted if all they were doing was simply cremating large numbers of bodies.

If all they were doing was cremating large numbers of bodies, they should have reacted as they did. Because they reacted as they did, it would indicate that they were merely cremating large numbers of bodies. Yes, I do have only my own incredulity to believe that Jewish men would react differently to being forced to perform an unpleasant task vs being forced to perform an unpleasant task in the service of exterminating all the Jews.

But feel free to argue that Jews don't care if they're merely performing an unpleasant task or if they're performing an unpleasant task that is part of the process of killing their own family, neighbors, co-coreligionists and eventually themselves. .


Please tell us what psychological difference it would make to a 'stoker' of a crematorium furnace loading the bodies in whether the bodies being burned had died of starvation and disease or had died of gassing.

It wouldn't.

But imagine being an undertaker who's clientele was primarily elderly men and women who had all died peacefully in their sleep or a clientele who was primarily children who had been beaten to death.

Feel free to argue that all you would care about is keeping the stiff from rotting before the funeral. As long as you get paid, cause of death wouldn't matter to you at all.


since Jewish men weren't forced to kill millions of Jewish children, women and men, your incredulity is irrelevant.

So you're not a killer if all you do is perform all the necessary functions of an industrialized killing machine except for the actual killing itself?
 
Nobody here has argued that Jews performed labor that benefited the process of killing the Jews? Nobody has argued that Jews helped the new arrivals get off the trains? Nobody has argued that Jews harvested the hair of to-be-gassed Jews? Nobody has argued that Jews sorted the clothing and other valuables of Jews who were murdered? Nobody has argued that Jews pulled dead Jews out of the gas chambers, pulled the gold teeth from their mouths and then put them into ovens? You should familiarize yourself with the history you so willingly embrace.



That's the dumbest analogy I've seen yet. A proper analogy would be Performing labour (please specify) that involved Jews being killed is not the same as actively killing them, any more than a Ukrainian Red Army soldier taken prisoner by the Germans who chooses to work as a guard at a death camp instead of starve to death himself is responsible when Jews are killed at the camp. Well guess what? That guard can be held criminally responsible for the deaths that occurred there. The fact is that the Jews performed necessary labor without which the holocaust would have ground to a halt and they are all accessories to murder.

If you're going to argue that Jews were innocent because they didn't actually drop the Zyklon B into the gas chamber, be sure an apply that standard across the board.




Maybe the one where useless eaters destined to be exterminated unless they could work were allowed to recuperate following surgery on an infected foot until the advance of the Red Army forced them out of their hospital bed and onto a death march across Poland and Germany.

Exactly.

Unless they are very stupid Team Holocaust breaks their respective necks to look away from the realities of human nature.

There is no way prisoners, Jewish or otherwise, would essentially be sanctioning the killings by facilitating and enabling them. Why? A Nano hostile environment that guards would not have had sufficient manpower to deal with.

Here's another aspect to consider, the daily work that is alleged to have been performed. Hard work. Those prisoners would have been super strong. Whereas the majority of camp guards would have been soldiers not fit enough to serve at the front lines. The alleged hostile environment would have made every one of those super strong men a ticking time bomb on a mission.

Page back to the Rodney King video.


Being in a perpetual rage would equal any drug that kept King from succumbing to all that manpower beating him.
 
There is a world of difference between the Ukrainian guards and the Jewish forced labourers. The Trawnikis all had a choice at some point about whether they wanted to serve or not. When they arrived at the camps, they all had a choice about continuing to serve; they could have deserted, and quite a few did, which meant they weren't generally held criminally responsible since by their actions they had shown they did not want to continue participating in an obviously criminal enterprise. The ones that stayed all had to shoot people, and there is no evidence that more than a minority tried to avoid doing so. The ones that stayed beat and killed prisoners.

Where is the evidence that Jewish forced labourers were free to choose between serving or not serving? Where is the evidence that Jewish forced labourers had to kill anyone directly? Where is the evidence that they had guns? Where is the evidence that Jewish forced labourers beat and killed prisoners? There isn't any.

I'm positive you've tried this argument on before, been answered, and then ignored the answers, only to bring the argument up again months later, and be answered, and no doubt you'll ignore the answers all over again. Wash, rinse, repeat.

You have no evidence to back up your characterization of the Trawniki vs the sondercommando. If what you said is true, then all guards, Trawniki or otherwise, were murderers and merely being stationed at a "death" camp would make you guilty. Was every guard that worked at any camp punished as a murderer?

Where's the evidence that sondercommando had no choice? Where's the evidence none of them volunteered? I know you have been asked and have never been able to explain how Jewish men and women were coerced into performing the tasks they did. Sorry but asking me if I've ever had a gun to my head isn't an answer unless you tell me how many guns were held to how many heads.


Or maybe you don't fully grasp the history of Auschwitz and how things changed from 1942-44.

No I really don't understand how a little boy with an infected foot is operated on in a hospital and is recuperating in a hospital means there weren't any hospitals. Maybe you or 000063 can explain it to me.
 
So only the people directly responsible for introducing gas into the gas chambers, either by dropping bug spray into the room or actually firing up the captured Soviet submarine engine, are murderers?

No. Those carrying out selections, choosing who lived and who died, are also murderers. Those who shot people in the Lazarett or for resisting during the entire process are murderers. Armed guards are accessories to murder (Beihilfe zum Mord) in such situations.

How did they know this?

Being told, directly witnessing killings of anyone who stepped out of line.

How high was the turnover rate?

Several hundred percent turnover rate as a minimum.

What percentage of the sondercommando had only been on the job for a day or two at any given time?

At Treblinka under Eberl, 25-33% a day it would seem. Under Stangl, a much lower turnover rate.

How many sondercommando killed themselves?

Quite a few according to the surviving members.

Why didn't others refuse to work? They all knew they were going to be killed after a few weeks anyway.

Human behaviour varies. The desire to live is extremely powerful and will make people do almost anything to stay alive. But not everyone would react like that. Which is why the reactions varied.

Once over the initial shock, routinisation and desensitisation will keep people doing even the most unpleasant things. I presume you accept that desensitisation is a fairly well proven psychological phenomenon.

What is the relevance of documents 'accepted as genuine by all leading revisionists' pertaining to the work force at Birkinau? Nobody claims there wasn't a place called Birkinau, that there were not crematoria there or that prisoners worked as trusties at the facility. As a side note, how many guards were supervising those workers? Nine hundred heads that need to have a gun pointed at each of them for motivation would require a lot of hands to hold a lot of guns.

The relevance of the documents is they prove that there were 900 prisoners working in the crematoria in the summer and autumn of 1944, up from 200 in February as it happens (also documented), and up from 400 circa April 1944. There are other documents referring to this unit as the Sonderkommando quite explicitly. So we know it existed.

The Birkenau Sonderkommando was kept inside the crematoria living in roof-spaces, inside barbed wire fences which were guarded, which in turn were inside further barbed wire fences which were guarded. In such an institution, you do not need to hold a gun literally to someone's head when it is clear to them that any attempt to escape will have to negotiate multiple barriers and run a gauntlet of guards who are armed.

Ultimately, there was a whole battalion directly on site, and more units nearby. When the Birkenau Sonderkommando revolted, they killed SS guards from two Birkenau companies and one Auschwitz main camp company which was obviously brought in as a reinforcement.

If all they were doing was cremating large numbers of bodies, they should have reacted as they did. Because they reacted as they did, it would indicate that they were merely cremating large numbers of bodies.

Except there is no evidence of mass suicides, multiple escape attempts or revolts from any other crematorium work crew in the Nazi camp system.

Yes, I do have only my own incredulity to believe that Jewish men would react differently to being forced to perform an unpleasant task vs being forced to perform an unpleasant task in the service of exterminating all the Jews.

But feel free to argue that Jews don't care if they're merely performing an unpleasant task or if they're performing an unpleasant task that is part of the process of killing their own family, neighbors, co-coreligionists and eventually themselves. .

Trying to escape, revolting, committing suicide and refusing to work don't add up to "don't care". Nor, one might add, does saying kaddish over the victims which was widely practiced by religious Jews caught up in such a situation. Nor does burying manuscripts describing the conditions in the Sonderkommando. Nor do the descriptions of life in the Sonderkommando indicate that they 'didn't care'.

It wouldn't.

No, it wouldn't. Crematorium stokers in other camps had to burn the bodies of those who had been executed with firearms, in addition to emaciated Muselmaenner and other horrors. Birkenau crematorium stokers had to burn the same kinds of bodies, plus gassing victims.

There is plentiful evidence that human beings can compartmentalise in factory environments and can deal with extremely unpleasant working conditions. But not everyone can, which is why there were refusals to work, escape attempts, revolts and suicides.

But imagine being an undertaker who's clientele was primarily elderly men and women who had all died peacefully in their sleep or a clientele who was primarily children who had been beaten to death.

Feel free to argue that all you would care about is keeping the stiff from rotting before the funeral. As long as you get paid, cause of death wouldn't matter to you at all.

This is a very dumb analogy since undertakers are not crematorium stokers.

So you're not a killer if all you do is perform all the necessary functions of an industrialized killing machine except for the actual killing itself?

Selections, shootings in the camps, using the threat of armed force to carry out the process, and dropping in gas/turning on engines. Those involved murder or made the SS and Trawnikis accessories to murder, especially because there is no evidence of an imminent threat to life for anyone who refused.

Whereas the Sonderkommandos were under an imminent threat to life if they chose not to sort clothing or burn bodies, which means that no court in the civilised world would ever convict them as accessories to murders because they were threatened with being killed if they did not comply.

It's very simple, and it's why your incredulity is simply antisemitic nonsense.
 
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