Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Astonishing.

I rode my bicycle to school, and I was never without at least a screwdriver, crescent wrench, and patching kit, and I usually had a Swiss Army knife as well. It was famous enough that it had a name, and I used it to fix things.

Now, I realize that the world has become brave and new and post-racist, and permitting tool use amongst Negroes would probably be considered as heinous as teaching American Standard English or permitting them to reach age 20 without diabetes, but that's no reason to pith oneself.

I'm with you. I feel the same way about the so-called weed bag they found on TM. When I was a kid I carried weed to school every day so I could make rope. It's outrageous to think he had a weed bag to smoke weed. Racists!

 

[Skepticemea]

198 pages. Have we decided whether Zimmerman is guilty of shooting someone under the suspicion of being black or was it a case of heroically defending himself against some he chased whilst armed?

You've only 700 more pages to sort this out. C'MON!

 

[Dan O.]

I asked my son if anyone rides a bike to his school (7-12th grade) and he said no

I would have said your son was probably lying if I didn't have Google Maps to check it out. In checking about a dozen high schools I only found one that still had the rows of bike racks and in that one there were only 2 bikes while the parking lots were full of cars.

This may be a regional thing since in my area bikes are still quite popular. I counted about 50 bikes at one school.

 

[truethat]

What nonsense is this debate? None of you know that Trayvon Martin rode a bike and kept tools for bike repair so all of your personal anecdotes have nothing to do with this at all.

Likewise Trayvon Martin could have had a ski mask, grappling hook, flash light and putty bomb making tools in his locker at school and in his book bag. It has nothing to do with what happened in that parking lot. When he was walking to the store he had none of this on him.

What he did have on him was some creepy looking shaved head guy stalking him through a parking lot and talking into the phone while watching Trayvon. How hard is it to understand that maybe the young boy thought he was being set up to get jumped and turned ad confronted the guy.

Trayvon Martin legally had a right to stand his ground. And he was killed.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

What nonsense is this debate? None of you know that Trayvon Martin rode a bike and kept tools for bike repair so all of your personal anecdotes have nothing to do with this at all.

Likewise Trayvon Martin could have had a ski mask, grappling hook, flash light and putty bomb making tools in his locker at school and in his book bag. It has nothing to do with what happened in that parking lot. When he was walking to the store he had none of this on him.

What he did have on him was some creepy looking shaved head guy stalking him through a parking lot and talking into the phone while watching Trayvon. How hard is it to understand that maybe the young boy thought he was being set up to get jumped and turned ad confronted the guy.

It's not hard to understand, in fact it's a possibility.

Trayvon Martin legally had a right to stand his ground. And he was killed.

No, actually you don't get to attack creepy looking guys you think might want to jump you. So IF that's what happened, no he doesn't have that right nor does that have anything to do with "stand your ground". You may wish to do some more research.

 

[curi0us]

Is that what you want to go with? Can we apply that same standard of evidence when discussing Zimmerman's actions?

Of course you can use circumstantial evidence against Zimmerman. The case against him is actually entirely based upon circumstantial evidence.

(I was right about you not understanding the word.)

I don't know. It was dark and raining. Martin was lying on the ground. Perhaps she honestly thought he was a little boy and half Zimmerman's size.

What if her police statement and 911 call prove that to be false?

Her statement isn't public yet and the 911 call links were taken down from the SPD website but here is what she has been reported to have said:

Mary Cutcher, phoned police after the gunshot and said the black man was standing over another man, which would have been impossible, because Trayvon was already dead.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2017887566_trayvonmartinfacts02.html

Being mistaken doesn't automatically mean you're lying. And if you're going to accuse someone of lying, you have to prove they are lying with something a little more convincing then "I think that person is lying". Nor does anyone else have to disprove your assertion. The burden is entirely on you.

Strawman with a fake quote. I've never even used the word "lying".

My claim is simple. Cutcher didn't get a good look at the TM that night. When Cutcher was later exposed to the PR misinformation she totally believed it and she let it influence her to the point that the PR message was interwoven with the narrative she then told the media.

But I don't really care because what she said or why she said it is meaningless to me. I chose that particular assertion randomly from one of several you made in your conspiracy web. They're all equally unsubstantiated and equally meaningless in determining the truth of what happened.

You could have picked the mother's voice ID or the GF's statement both of which are absolutely central to the states case. Don't blame me or randomness for your decisions.

 

[LTC8K6]

Was it a very large flat-ended one, like this one?

Did you also carry jewelry "for a friend"?

There's no doubt at all that if you are stopped by the police while walking around a neighborhood, and you have that screwdriver on you, it will be called a burglar's tool. Won't matter what color your skin is, either.

Unless you have a full set of mechanic's tools with you as well, the cops are going to refer to your screwdriver as a burglar's tool.

It's such a common thing that lawyers specialize in defense of the term.

http://dmcantor.com/possession-of-burglary-tools

 

[johnny karate]

Right johnny, I bet he just happened to find the jewlery and screwdriver on his way to school and was just about to turn it in so the rightful owner could claim it.

That's terrific. I'm just so glad we agree on this new standard of evidence.

Zimmerman has a history of violent and impulsive behavior.

Zimmerman has dreams of being a cop.

During the course of his 911 call, Zimmerman violates two central tenets of the neighborhood watch, thus further demonstrating his impulsiveness and lack of good judgment.

Based on his both his behavioral history and his behavior that night, we can conclude that Zimmerman armed himself, and then chased down and confronted Martin.

 

[johnny karate]

There's no doubt at all that if you are stopped by the police while walking around a neighborhood, and you have that screwdriver on you, it will be called a burglar's tool. Won't matter what color your skin is, either.

Unless you have a full set of mechanic's tools with you as well, the cops are going to refer to your screwdriver as a burglar's tool.

It's such a common thing that lawyers specialize in defense of the term.

http://dmcantor.com/possession-of-burglary-tools

From your link:

This can be charged when a person simply has a screwdriver in their pocket and they have been caught trespassing onto a residential or commercial yard.

The mere fact that the Defendant has a screw driver, pocket knife, or some other item in his pocket should not be construed as “Possession of Burglary Tools”. Many of these items are common items that have nothing to do with committing crimes (such as using a screw driver to actually insert or remove screws).

Oops.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Based on his both his behavioral history and his behavior that night, we can conclude that Zimmerman armed himself, and then chased down and confronted Martin.

Well, 1 out of 3.

If you think you can conclude the other 2, please contact the FL prosecutors office. It appears they desperately need your help.

 

[johnny karate]

Of course you can use circumstantial evidence against Zimmerman. The case against him is actually entirely based upon circumstantial evidence.

(I was right about you not understanding the word.)

I'm so glad I have you here to explain it all to me.

So regarding this "circumstantial evidence" you speak of... in regards to Zimmerman you say we can use it. Can we also make assertions based on it? Statements of fact?

Let's say someone said, "Zimmerman's head wounds were not as severe as we were lead to believe" and based this argument on circumstantial evidence, you wouldn't object?

What if her police statement and 911 call prove that to be false?

Her statement isn't public yet and the 911 call links were taken down from the SPD website but here is what she has been reported to have said:

Mary Cutcher, phoned police after the gunshot and said the black man was standing over another man, which would have been impossible, because Trayvon was already dead.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2017887566_trayvonmartinfacts02.html

You let me know just as soon any of that gets verified. I'll probably continued to be bored by your conspiracy theory, but at least it gives you something to do.

Strawman with a fake quote. I've never even used the word "lying".

So... you're not arguing that Cutcher is lying?

And just so you know, quotation marks aren't used exclusively as a means of quoting someone. Every time you see someone use them in response to you, in doesn't necessarily mean they're claiming you said whatever it is that's in quotation marks. I'm sorry if that confused you.

My claim is simple. Cutcher didn't get a good look at the TM that night. When Cutcher was later exposed to the PR misinformation she totally believed it and she let it influence her to the point that the PR message was interwoven with the narrative she then told the media.

I understand your claim. What you seem to fail to understand is that you have no evidence Cutcher was influenced by the "PR message". None. And short of a confession by Cutcher herself, you never will.

You could have picked the mother's voice ID or the GF's statement both of which are absolutely central to the states case. Don't blame me or randomness for your decisions.

Where did I "blame" you and for what? This seems to be some bizarre persecution complex.

 

[johnny karate]

Well, 1 out of 3.

If you think you can conclude the other 2, please contact the FL prosecutors office. It appears they desperately need your help.

And right on cue, the inevitable goal post shift from "personal belief" to "legal fact" rears its head.

So remind me again, what legal facts do we have that tell us Trayvon Martin
was carrying a burglary tool and stolen jewelry?

 

[WildCat]

198 pages. Have we decided whether Zimmerman is guilty of shooting someone under the suspicion of being black or was it a case of heroically defending himself against some he chased whilst armed?

Yes.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

And right on cue, the inevitable goal post shift from "personal belief" to "legal fact" rears its head.

Fair enough. You can have all three for your personal belief.

 

[WildCat]

What he did have on him was some creepy looking shaved head guy stalking him through a parking lot and talking into the phone while watching Trayvon. How hard is it to understand that maybe the young boy thought he was being set up to get jumped and turned ad confronted the guy.

Trayvon Martin legally had a right to stand his ground. And he was killed.

You think SYG means you can attack a person you suspect is stalking you?

 

[johnny karate]

Fair enough. You can have all three for your personal belief.

Yes, we are all entitled to our personal beliefs. I just hope in the interest of fairness those of us that have assumed Martin's guilt will use the exact same standards when judging the guilt of Zimmerman.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Well, 1 out of 3.

If you think you can conclude the other 2, please contact the FL prosecutors office. It appears they desperately need your help.

Technically speaking, do we know it's not his more typical 0 out of 3? Based on the context of the sentence you quoted it would seem he's saying GZ armed himself at the beginning of this, but we don't know that, do we? Of course it's still true he was armed, I just don't like the idea that he's increasing his correctness average from an unprecedented 0 to .333.

 

[WildCat]

That's terrific. I'm just so glad we agree on this new standard of evidence.

Zimmerman has a history of violent and impulsive behavior.

Zimmerman has dreams of being a cop.

During the course of his 911 call, Zimmerman violates two central tenets of the neighborhood watch, thus further demonstrating his impulsiveness and lack of good judgment.

Based on his both his behavioral history and his behavior that night, we can conclude that Zimmerman armed himself, and then chased down and confronted Martin.

And Operation Northwoods proves 9/11 was an inside job, based on the same quality of evidence you just presented.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

You think SYG means you can attack a person you suspect is stalking you?

You mean you haven't seen the "you can attack someone you think might be stalking you if they are creepy looking and have a shaved head" clause in SYG?

 

[johnny karate]

And Operation Northwoods proves 9/11 was an inside job, based on the same quality of evidence you just presented.

Ah yes, that indefinable "quality of evidence".

Assuming a young black kid with a screwdriver is using it as a burglary tool is, of course, topnotch "quality" evidence.

But assuming a wannabe-cop with a record of violent behavior would chase down and confront someone he suspected of being a criminal, well that is just silly.

And we know it's true because WildCat says so.