Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[johnny karate]

I know. It's not inexplicable. The suspicious jewelry found in the boy's possession WAS reported to police.

The school "impounded" the jewelry and then sent pictures to the police. Last October. Full stop. End of story.

Probably is was stolen. And probably it was stolen by him. Or, less likely, but at a bare minimum, he was covering up for a "friend" that he knew had stolen it. But no one could prove it at the time, so the issue was dropped.

Yes, it's damn near impossible to prove a crime was committed when you catch someone in possession of stolen property. Too bad we have such crazy laws that only make it possible to prosecute someone for theft if you actually catch them in the act of stealing.

 

[Dan O.]

Irony ?

Please explain.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Please explain.

I found it amusing you felt it necessary to swear :

******** with anger management issues.

Almost as if you were angry at people with that issue...

 

[lane99]

You'd be a supermodel in Mexico or Indonesia

I'm 5'3" and weigh 140 so I'm a short, fat woman. Medically speaking. I didn't mean to insult anyone.

I wouldn't call 5'3'' short, even in the US. And, if we consider the world as a whole, you're probably even taller than average.

Just stay away from Lithuania or the Czech Republic

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Yes, it's damn near impossible to prove a crime was committed when you catch someone in possession of stolen property.

If no one reports it stolen or the police don't bother to try to match it to previous or new stolen jewelry reports. Becuase the police dept is awesome and really cares about your stolen property.

Too bad we have such crazy laws that only make it possible to prosecute someone for theft if you actually catch them in the act of stealing.

TM stole jewelry or was holding for a friend. The screwdriver, in this context, is a burglary tool. I don't see a reasonable third alternative. Would you care to put one forth ?

Does this matter in regards to the shooting ? Probably not. Which makes me wonder why keep jumping through hoops to avoid admitting it looks like TM was a JD.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

TM stole jewelry or was holding for a friend. The screwdriver, in this context, is a burglary tool. I don't see a reasonable third alternative. Would you care to put one forth?

I think I put one forth earlier. Maybe he was an aspiring carpenter . Sarcasm aside, screwdrivers are also frequently carried as weapons.

 

[johnny karate]

If no one reports it stolen or the police don't bother to try to match it to previous or new stolen jewelry reports. Becuase the police dept is awesome and really cares about your stolen property.

So someone was robbed of their diamond earrings and wedding band and didn't report it to the police? A school investigator suspects a student of potential grand larceny and doesn't turn him over to the police?

I suppose those circumstances fall into the category of possibility, but probability seems like quite a stretch.

TM stole jewelry or was holding for a friend. The screwdriver, in this context, is a burglary tool. I don't see a reasonable third alternative. Would you care to put one forth ?

Does this matter in regards to the shooting ? Probably not. Which makes me wonder why keep jumping through hoops to avoid admitting it looks like TM was a JD.

I'm not the one jumping through hoops. I'm the one pointing out that Trayvon Martin didn't have a criminal record. It's everyone else contorting facts and making unsubstantiated assumptions about his supposed criminal behavior.

And I'll ask again, if it's so important to acknowledge that Martin might have been a juvenile delinquent, why is not equally important - or more so - to acknowledge that Zimmerman actually is a violent offender?

 

[johnny karate]

I think I put one forth earlier. Maybe he was an aspiring carpenter . Sarcasm aside, screwdrivers are also frequently carried as weapons.

George Zimmerman carries a gun = It's his legal right! He did nothing wrong!

Trayvon Martin was at one time reported to have a screwdriver in his possession = It's a burglary tool or a weapon.

Nope, no bias here. None at all.

 

[curi0us]

Except that I didn't ask you to "support" your allegations, I asked you to provide evidence of them. If I want to see fantastical theories "supported" I can go to the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories forum.

Let's start with this one:

Show me evidence that this happened.

Not a bunch of connect-the-dots, circumstantial nonsense, but actual evidence.

I already did supply evidence. You are just in CT/troll denial mode.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8193892&postcount=6151

Show me the evidence that I'm wrong!

Cutcher while declaring GZ guilty called TM a "little boy" and a "child" and said that TM was "half the size" of GZ. She didn't actually witness any of those things though, so where do you think she got those ideas?

(Without those extra ideas in her head she doesn't claim GZ is guilty.)

Here is Cutcher at the Crump/Martin Press Conference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cWwUAbbWnk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.cfnews13.com/content/new...icles/cfn/2012/3/16/travon_martin_shooti.html

After that the Sanford police said Cutcher had been making untrue statements to the media:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE_Zhutjl38&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Dan O.]

I found it amusing you felt it necessary to swear :

******** with anger management issues.

Almost as if you were angry at people with that issue...

You associate that word with anger? Do you believe George Zimmerman was angry that Trayvon Martin was walking through his gated community?

 

[Dancing David]

And you are trying to pass your opinions off as legal facts, and to dismiss established facts as merely opinions.

I doubt that, but please continue, I stated what I felt. I am sure you will have an exact place where I stated my opinion was legal fact as well.

You have sprayed enough piss in this thread, I am sure a few more gallons won't matter.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

So someone was robbed of their diamond earrings and wedding band and didn't report it to the police? A school investigator suspects a student of potential grand larceny and doesn't turn him over to the police?

I hilited the part you just made up.

Clearly, the school notified the police. Perhaps the police didn't request TM be turned over. IDK - why does it matter ? Because you think that really wasn't stolen jewelry ?

I suppose those circumstances fall into the category of possibility, but probability seems like quite a stretch.

I have no idea what you can base that probability on.

I'm not the one jumping through hoops. I'm the one pointing out that Trayvon Martin didn't have a criminal record.

Did someone claim he had a criminal record ? I missed that. And you are absolutely jumping through hoops to avoid the obvious conclusion that when a boy in highschool has a wedding band and other womens jewelry, along with a screwdriver in his backpack, it's because he stole it or is holding for a friend.

It's everyone else contorting facts and making unsubstantiated assumptions about his supposed criminal behavior.

Unsubstantiated ? That word ... I do not think it means what you think it means.

And I'll ask again, if it's so important to acknowledge that Martin might have been a juvenile delinquent, why is not equally important - or more so - to acknowledge that Zimmerman actually is a violent offender?

I don't think it's important to acknowledged. My whole point was it is unimportant to the case ... yet you still go to great lengths to make excuses. I only went down the drug use path in relation to GZ claiming TM was on drugs - he might actually have been.

I think GZ 'violent offender' history was adequately addressed by the Judge. Despite the fact GZ was a 'violent offender' and shot and killed someone (!) he still set bail at 150,000.

That price tells me how important GZ violent offender history is. That is to say, hardly at all.

 

[triforcharity]

I don't think I'd have any signs of being in a fight if I sucker punched someone in the nose, and then got on top of them and began banging their head on the ground. The sucker punch stuns them completely, so they are unable to fight back for at least a little while.

You'd have damage to your knuckles at minimum, which would show during autopsy.

 

[Bikewer]

Persons in posession of stolen property may normally be charged with "receiving stolen property", provided they can be shown to "reasonably be aware" that the property is stolen.

Not an easy case to prove...”Psssst...Hey buddy, wanna buy a Rolex?"

"I just thought the guy was a real-estate broker who fell on hard times....."

 

[Dancing David]

Legally, I don't think the duty to retreat would have required Zimmerman not to follow. I agree that it was a poor decision, and can reasonably be described as "reckless" as that word is understood in common usage. But, even though I also toyed with this idea early in this thread, upon more careful consideration I don't think it rises to the legal definition of recklessness.

And the establishment of some chain of reason and logic/evidence showing that either a reasonable person would not have followed Trayvon or that a reasonable person would have felt threatened by being followed will likely be part of the prosecutors case.

DISCLAIMER TO PREVENT FLAMING BY CRIMRESEACRH
In no way should the above opinion be taken as a statement of legal fact or in contradiction of legal fact. All readers should assume I am 'just some guy on the internet' who is expressing an opinion.

 

[Dancing David]

TM isn't a professional fighter though, let alone a champion. In fact, if anything, what is known about TM is that he's a nice kid who doesn't get into fights and GZ is short and out of shape.

I think a better question is what would I expect to see if a lanky teenager fought a little fat guy? A sloppy punch and two guys rolling around on the ground.

Psst, the notion that GZ is fat is highly over rated.

BTW: my teachers always said to watch out for the little ones.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

George Zimmerman carries a gun = It's his legal right! He did nothing wrong!

I think you are conflating 2 separate issues. GZ was legally allowed to carry a gun. And whether he did something illegal is the question.

Trayvon Martin was at one time reported to have a screwdriver in his possession = It's a burglary tool or a weapon.

When it's found with women jewelry that isn't his, and he won't explain where the jewelry came from, yes.

Nope, no bias here. None at all.

Ah, Irony. I see.

 

[triforcharity]

Here is something that potentially contradicts Zimmerman.

Over at DailyKos, they took a still shot from a video of the crime scene.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/23/1085878/-Trayvon-Martin-Crime-Scene-Photo

In it, you can see that Trayvon's body is lying a good 10 feet from the sidewalk (I'll grant that the exact distance is hard to ascertain from this photo).

Some explanations:

1. Trayvon was shot while on his knees, straddling Zimmerman, then got up and staggered to the other side of that small rise.
2. Zimmerman pushed Trayvon off of him and rolled him to the spot where he ended up.
3. EMT or police moved his body.

Occam's razor seems to suggest that Trayvon was shot close to where he ended up. If so, he's not anywhere near concrete.

We can rule out EMT's or police, as all they would do is roll a person one way or another till they were face up. It's impossible to tell if Martin is face down or up in the photo. However, when the police arrived, the report said he was face down.

But, it appears that he's about maybe.....5 feet from the sidewalk. Not sure if that helps out or not, but that's my view.

 

[Dancing David]

if there was such damning evidence of any of these crimes, why were the police not called in?

While this is irrelevant to the case at hand, it would certainly go against my district's policy.

If the jewelry was reported stolen, that is going to a crime. And possession of a screwdriver outside of a shop class is an expulsion in my school district. The possession of an empty baggie with dope traces would be a five day suspension on the first instance.

Possession of stolen property would likely lead to junior jail, a court date and then station report. Unless it was stolen from a student at school, then expulsion.

 

[triforcharity]

If Zimmerman managed to wiggle off the sidewalk during the struggle, then we have TM moving after he's shot, then we have him rolled over for CPR, and maybe moved to see what's under him...

Why would he still be near the sidewalk?

Mainly because EMT's and Paramedics don't move gunshot victims very far for any reason.

Since Martin's body was still at the scene, that tells me that they moved him very little. Rolling him so he was face up with be the most any EMT/Medic would move a GS victim. They are trained in the preservation of evidence, and moving the victim compromises forensic evidence. As they roll a victim, they check under him/her for other obvious injuries, and if CPR will be performed, they would most likely put a backboard under him/her to create a firm surface, if the surface isn't suitable for CPR. But, grass would be acceptable most of the time. Once the victim is face up, they don't move a victim unless they transport, or if there is something nearby that is a threat to their safety, or the victim's.

Once the victim is pronounced dead, nothing else is moved. Not trash, not IV tubing, nothing. Everything is left exactly where it is (With the exception of the EMT/Medic's tools and unused supplies) and documented by the ME and the homicide detective. Even if the police/ME roll a victim to search for further evidence, he/she is placed back exactly where they were found.

Hope this helps.