Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[johnny karate]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/...curity-Job-Due-To-Temper-and-Being-Liability-

In 2005, the same year that Zimmerman lost his security guard job, he was also arrested for “resisting officer with violence” and “battery of law enforcement officer,” both third-degree felonies. Those charges were dropped after he agreed to enter an alcohol education program.
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...estic-violence-fighting-with-a-police-officer

Court documents obtained by msnbc.com on Tuesday evening show that George Zimmerman, who fatally shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, went to court in 2005 and 2006 for accusations of domestic violence, tussling with a police officer and speeding.
The three incidents took place in Orange County, Fla.
In 2005, Zimmerman, then 20, was arrested and charged with “resisting officer with violence” and “battery of law enforcement officer,” both which are third-degree felonies. The charge was reduced to “resisting officer without violence” and then waived when he entered an alcohol education program.

There seems to be conflicting information on that issue, but I'm certainly willing to concede the point as I don't see how it mitigates the fact that Zimmerman has a documented history of violence.

 

[LTC8K6]

Except that picture of a kid flipping the bird turned out to not be TM. Oops, foiled again!

That was one incorrect pic, the rest were indeed him flipping the bird.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The point I'm trying make is that between the two of us, we've posited two possible ways the police could have viewed the scenario that night:

1) Neighborhood watch captain shoots a random thug in self-defense.

2) Violent Hispanic man murders innocent boy.

Which conclusion do you think to be more likely?

2)

You might be confused as to what "massive" means. It's a descriptor of size, not numerical totality. Unless you're alleging there were more than a dozen or so people involved in the initial investigation, you're use of the term "massive" is incorrect.

Yup, poor word choice for sure.

 

[johnny karate]

I think it's a difficult comparison because Trayvon was so young. Had he not been in high school and actually caught by police officers rather than school security guards, he would have a criminal record; posession of drug paraphernalia and posession of stolen goods are both legitimate charges, even if he didn't steal the jewelry himself. If one person's history, going back 5-8 years is relevant to his character, than the other person's history going over the recent year is also relevant.

Except that Zimmerman's history is documented by law enforcement, Martin's is not.

I guess it was just lucky for Trayvon that he went to a school that for some inexplicable reason doesn't report serious crimes to the police.

 

[RandFan]

I understand what you were trying to do. I find it misleading.

No, the argument made was misleading and easily demonstrated fallacious.

Dominic Cruz would handle most of the world fairly easily because he dedicates his life to fighting...

It's an extreme to prove a point. If Dominic could be attacked without showing signs of it then so could anyone else. My point is correct and not misleading. If the person making the original argument wants to instead argue probabilities then that would be something entirely different (though arguable). As it is the argument is fallacious and easily demonstrated as such.

 

[Unabogie]

There seems to be conflicting information on that issue, but I'm certainly willing to concede the point as I don't see how it mitigates the fact that Zimmerman has a documented history of violence.

Didn't they mention "anger management" in court?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/george-zimmerman-released-fla-jail-16192275#.T5cB2tVG040

Prosecutors had asked for $1 million bail, citing two previous scrapes Zimmerman had with the law, neither of which resulted in charges. In 2005, he had to take anger management courses after he was accused of attacking an undercover officer who was trying to arrest Zimmerman's friend. In another incident, a girlfriend accused him of attacking her.

 

[johnny karate]

So you agree that it's evidence he participates in fights ?

I agree that is was presented as evidence. I don't agree that it is particularly compelling or useful. And I certainly think the use of the word "participate" to describe someone who wasn't actually in the fight is at best disingenuous.

 

[dirtywick]

No, the argument made was misleading and easily demonstrated fallacious.

It's an extreme to prove a point. If Dominic could be attacked without showing signs of it then so could anyone else. My point is correct and not misleading. If the person making the original argument wants to instead argue probabilities then that would be something entirely different (though arguable). As it is the argument is fallacious and easily demonstrated as such.

I disagree. Cruz could be attacked and not show signs by virture of being Dominic Cruz. He's dedicated his life to being good at fighting. Unless one has demonstrated that level of commitment and ability, there's no reason to believe anyone can parallel the success of someone who has.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Except that picture of a kid flipping the bird turned out to not be TM. Oops, foiled again!

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/second-trayvon-martin-twitter-feed-identified/

 

[sgtbaker]

Except that Zimmerman's history is documented by law enforcement, Martin's is not.

I guess it was just lucky for Trayvon that he went to a school that for some inexplicable reason doesn't report serious crimes to the police.

No Martin's is documented by the school. It's still a history contrary to the original impression we were given of Martin. I don't know if it is inexplicable because I don't know the school's policy regarding reporting stolen goods or drug paraphernalia but what we do know is that it was documented. The only fortune is that he happened to be caught in school and not on the street.

 

[RandFan]

I disagree. Cruz could be attacked and not show signs by virture of being Dominic Cruz. He's dedicated his life to being good at fighting. Unless one has demonstrated that level of commitment and ability, there's no reason to believe anyone can parallel the success of someone who has.

You are arguing a straw man. No one is arguing that anyone can parallel the success of Cruz. No one need to.

Here is the point you are failing to grasp. There is a gradient from a person who is very likely to show signs of an attack and someone who is very unlikely. I've shown what the extreme is. Now it's your job to show where TM lies on that gradient.

Here is the other more important point, why should we assume it's absolutely impossible for TM to be attacked and show no signs of it? And trust me, if you do think it is impossible then you are very likely the only one who thinks so. That doesn't make you wrong but it ought to give you pause.

If you don't think it is impossible for TM to be attacked and not show signs then you are wasting your time with your argument.

 

[eeyore1954]

Wait, how is that at odds? On the night of the incident, GZ was 5'8" and about 200 pounds. Sounds like a short, fat guy to me.

Thanks, he is a few pounds less and 1 inch taller than me.

 

[Dan O.]

If I start a fight with someone over something stupid...let's say a parking space...

How long do I wait before I shoot him?

If you didn't have that gun would you have started the fight in the first place?

It's your choice, you take the beating that you got yourself into or you use the gun and get put away in jail where you won't endanger anyone else.


The question for the civilized society is how do we get the guns out of the hands of these ******** with anger management issues.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The question for the civilized society is how do we get the guns out of the hands of these ******** with anger management issues.

Irony ?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

This seems to be why the prosecutor thinks Zimmerman told at least 3 different versions of events.

Second request for a cite on this.

 

[KatieG]

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/second-trayvon-martin-twitter-feed-identified/

Ah, the picture I was thinking about was the one from someone else's FB page. This one is obviously TM.

 

[KatieG]

Thanks, he is a few pounds less and 1 inch taller than me.

I'm 5'3" and weigh 140 so I'm a short, fat woman. Medically speaking. I didn't mean to insult anyone.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Second request for a cite on this.

Didn't happen. This is probably what he is thinking:

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But before you committed this crime on February 26th, you were arrested -- I'm sorry, not arrested. You were questioned that day, right, February 26th?
ZIMMERMAN: That evening into the 27th.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then the following morning. Is that correct?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the following evening, too. ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ok. Would it be fair to say you were questioned about four or five times?
ZIMMERMAN: I remember giving three statements, yes sir.

 

[lane99]

...I don't know if it is inexplicable because I don't know the school's policy regarding reporting stolen goods...

I know. It's not inexplicable. The suspicious jewelry found in the boy's possession WAS reported to police.

Probably is was stolen. And probably it was stolen by him. Or, less likely, but at a bare minimum, he was covering up for a "friend" that he knew had stolen it. But no one could prove it at the time, so the issue was dropped.

 

[johnny karate]

No Martin's is documented by the school. It's still a history contrary to the original impression we were given of Martin. I don't know if it is inexplicable because I don't know the school's policy regarding reporting stolen goods or drug paraphernalia but what we do know is that it was documented.

The only school documentation - or any documentation - regarding Martin supposed criminality is for possession of an empty baggie with marijuana residue and vandalism. No police record, and nothing substantiating the allegations that he was a drug dealer, burglar or jewel thief. Again, if there was such damning evidence of any of these crimes, why were the police not called in?

The only fortune is that he happened to be caught in school and not on the street.

Yes, because unless the police catch you on the street, you are free from prosecution. Any felonies committed on the grounds of a public school are not punishable by law.

But the real question is: How do these unsubstantiated allegations about Martin inform us about the events of that night in way that Zimmerman's documented history of violence doesn't?