Can you please cite your source for your definition of "heavy labor" as it was used colloquially in the mid-20th century German concentration/labor/death camp system? I'm also interested in learning how killing was classified if it was not "heavy labor." Was it considered "clerical" or perhaps "light industrial?" What other duties did the Germans reserve for themselves besides the killing?
General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II
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Can you please cite your source for your definition of "heavy labor" as it was used colloquially in the mid-20th century German concentration/labor/death camp system? I'm also interested in learning how killing was classified if it was not "heavy labor." Was it considered "clerical" or perhaps "light industrial?" What other duties did the Germans reserve for themselves besides the killing?
Please cite your source for the assertion that Jews were never involved in criminal activity during the war. Is the lack of criminal behavior among Jews unique to this particular time and place? That is, is it true that Jews have never been involved in criminal activity ever, anywhere? Or is it that during the years 1939-1945 Jews committed no crimes? Or is it only the Jews who live in Europe who are incapable of committing a crime but Jews everywhere else are as likely to commit crimes as the non-Jews? Or is it that Jews in general are just as prone to criminal behavior as non-Jews except for the Jews who were living under Nazi occupation who didn't commit crimes? Or is it that when a Jew commits a crime, it ceases to be a crime? Or is it just that Jews were charged with the crime of being Jewish no matter what else they might've done to come to the attention of the authorities because the crime of being Jewish was considered so heinous that any other crime paled in comparison?
You seem quite confident in your assertion. I'm sure you have the data to back it up.
ddt
Mafia Penguin
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zentralstelle_f%C3%BCr_j%C3%BCdische_Auswanderung_in_Amsterdam
Does that help?
Run it through Google translate, and how much or little it distorts, the names and functions of the founder and its management will stand out.All they have is nitpicking minutiae. Don't let them lead you astray with the stupid stuff. The current discussion about the model of the car or the position of the exhaust in that video clip KevinSilberst pointed you to when you asked for a video of a gas chamber is a perfect example of the way these people think. They know that the video doesn't show a gas chamber. So they find some irrelevant statement you made and attack that. It's like they think if they can show that you misidentified the make and model of the automobile in the video, then somehow the video shows a gas chamber and because it shows a gas chamber, the holocaust happened.
Ignore that particular tangent. It doesn't matter if you're right or if AntPogo is right or if 000063 is right. The bottom line is that the video clip doesn't show a gas chamber. If it did, so what? There's nothing there that is evidence of an extermination program for the Jews and only the most gullible ignoramus thinks there is.
You might not think you're learning anything but the answers you're getting are actually very illustrative. You're finding out that they really don't have answers to some very fundamental questions.
ddt
Mafia Penguin
No but writing something that looks like a mathematical formula suggests it is a valid one. This one didn't even conform to the basic syntax. So what was the point of writing it down? Marras has a valid point.
How can you know? Isn't it more probable that you misunderstood, with your poor English skills? You know, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
See Snakey? This is what I'm talking about. AntPogo most certainly did imply that Jews were never involved in any criminal activity or resisted the occupation in any way or did anything at all except be Jewish. But Bluespaceoddity thinks that if you're unable to provide an adequate explanation of some random passage that he ran through google translator, then your recognition that AntPogo said Jews never committed crimes doesn't need to be taken seriously.
Don't even bother replying to Bluespaceoddity's attempt to derail. I rarely bother replying to anything he says.
ddt
Mafia Penguin
You didn't notice that BSO had already provided a translation? Or you chose to ignore that and play dumb?
It comes from the Ordinance published in, a.o., the Nieuwsblad van het Noorden of Wednesday 14 April 1943, which BSO linked to earlier. You can also find it in the Dordrechtsche Courant of Monday 29 March 1943.
Maybe you should also look at article 1 of that same ordinance:
"Met ingang van 10 april 1943 is aan joden het verblijf in de provincies Friesland, Drenthe, Groningen, Overijssel, Gelderland, Limburg, Noord-Brabant en Zeeland verboden."
Translation: from April 10th, 1943 on, Jews are forbidden to stay in the provinces {see list above}.
That blows your idiotic excuse that this ordinance was only about some criminals out of the water.
Bluespaceoddity
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Verordening 189/40 was promulgated 22 October 1940. Nothing random about it or its selection.
These aren't derails. On the contrary these are the words that eventually set the trains in motion.
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Nick Terry
Illuminator
Projection.
Projection.
But SnakeTongue started the discussion about the model of the car. So projection again.
If it doesn't show a gas experiment, then why is SnakeTongue arsing about denying that the car was on the market during WWII?
Have either ST or you got a coherent explanation for why a car would be idling in a static position with a pipe sticking out of its arse like that? Any external proof for why it's doing that?
According to the provenance of the film, it was found in Artur Nebe's flat at the end of the war. Nebe was commander of Einsatzgruppe B in the summer of 1941, when other sources indicate experiments in killing methods were conducted in Minsk and Mogilev, including experimenting with engine exhaust gas. The experiments were conducted on psychiatric patients. It is documented that psychiatric patients were bumped off in these towns at this time (in the Einsatzgruppen reports). It is also documented that Nebe summoned a chemist from the Kriminaltechnisches Institut of the Kripo/RSHA to Minsk (in a file belonging to Nebe's adjutant). The chemist testified after the war (in a different country to where the file was archived).
Isolating the film from all other evidence is completely unhistorical.
Projection.
Ignorance of context. The experiments were conducted on psychiatric patients. The murder of psychiatric patients is documented for the same locality. The murder of psychiatric patients and the mentally handicapped in gas chambers in Germany is also documented. The Nazis had a policy of murdering such people, based on criteria of economic utility and in accordance with a clearly enunciated eugenic strategy.
The extermination of the Jews has other documentation to prove it, but because the experiments at Minsk and Mogilev led to the evolution of gas vans (which is ostensibly a subject of discussion in one part of this thread) then the film is a piece of evidence - not necessarily even the most crucial - which helps illuminate this evolution, in tandem with other evidence.
That evolution is subsequently better documented in a series of memos, reports and telegrams, only one of which has been discussed so far on this chunk of the thread. The use of gas vans to kill both Jews and non-Jews has a wealth of other evidence to support it.
Not least of which are various sources indicating Jews and non-Jews had been executed by the Nazis, which because of the laconic nature of most reporting did not specify the method, but from other sources such as witnesses, we know gas vans were used, in regions/localities where we know there were gas vans were present from documents.
Thus, we have multiple sources indicating Jews were being mass murdered in Generalkommissariat Weissruthenien in the early summer of 1942, including a report form the Generalkommissar Erich Kube stating that 55,000 Jews had just been murdered across the district (3424-PS). Further statements from Nazis stationed in this region confirm that there was mass murder going on; there are other documents breaking down the figure of 55,000 showing that actions were underway in specific areas. One of those documents is the war diary of a Waffen-SS unit stationed at Maly Trostinets, indicating in fairly explicit but poetic terms ('given over to the earth') that the unit was helping murder Jews at this site. Some of the victims came from the Minsk ghetto, some from deportation transports out of Austria and Germany (also documented as terminating in Minsk).
We also know that the RSHA sent some of its "S-Wagen" to Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspolizei Ostland for use in 'Minsk', the headquarters of the subordinate KdS Weissruthenien. The "S-Wagen" telex was in a bundle of documents (501-PS) which included the very explicit report by August Becker from his inspection tour of the Einsatzgruppen using gas vans. The Becker report cannot be understood as meaning anything other than gas vans were in use, which is why Holocaust deniers have traditionally tried to dismiss it as a forgery.
But the "S-Wagen" telex and the bundle also indicate license plate numbers in a specific sequence. A separate document from Einsatzgruppe B notes the arrival of explicitly named "Gaswagen" at this unit, giving licence plate numbers in the same sequence. Since other documents (in BA R58/871) concerning gas vans also specify the same number plate sequence, there is a treble convergence. In fact a fourth source confirms this because the Polish resistance noted the arrival of a gas van at Auschwitz main camp in the autumn of 1944, obviously in the course o the retreat from the occupied Soviet territories, and noted the exact same license plate number as appeared in the Einsatzgruppe B report. That report wasn't found in a Polish archive.
Needless to say, there are multiple witnesses - SS mainly - to the use of gas vans by Einsatzgruppe B, KdS Weissruthenien in Minsk (especially at Maly Trostinets). Quite a few are excerpted in Eugen Kogon et al, Nazi Mass Murder through Poison Gas (1993, translating 1983 German original).
And finally, the Nazis had to beat such a hasty retreat out of Smolensk that they did not have time to burn the bodies in the mass grave they created to accommodate the former inhabitants of the Smolensk ghetto. These victims were murdered by Trupp Smolensk of Einsatzgruppe B in July 1942, whose documented bodycount rose in the same time period to a sufficient number to include these victims. Witnesses stated gas vans were used alongside shootings; and we already know Einsatzgruppe B had gas vans. Soviet pathologists exhumed the graves in October 1943 and found bodies without bullet wounds, and concluded they were probably asphyxiated. Higher Soviet authorities massaged the detail and removed the 'probably'.
From the perspective of strict evidential logic, it is a secondary issue whether the Jews or other victims documented as being killed were killed using gas vans or other methods. Accordingly, since we know that people were being murdered, the fact that other sources tell us that some of them were murdered by gas vans and some by bullets in these examples means that there is very little reason not to accept the inferences which flow from the sum total of this evidence.
The absence of specific links in the chain of documentation or the absence of pictures, films or the vans themselves are not logical arguments against the inferences. Indeed, arguments from negative evidence are hardly ever logical. But they're all you guys have got.
If you can take all the items of evidence just mentioned (there are more) and explain them in a coherent fashion, you will win a huge prize - being the first denier to do more than nitpick and obsess over minutiae.
Aaaand yet more projection. What happened to the Jews, Dogzilla?
Bluespaceoddity
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From the bottom.
DDT has offered more encouragement for you to answer the Zentralstelle question yourself. Contrary to what Dogzilla would have us believe, the examples aren't random and the questions keep coming because you keep demonstrating how poorly you do with topics you introduce yourself and with material that is so obvious that it can't really be misconstrued without putting in some genuine effort. That is, of course, the core of the observation ANTPogo made earlier. If you can't give a reliable answer in reaction to such material how can you be trusted with analyzing or reconstruction of evidentiary materials that aren't spelled out in black and white on the page of surviving documents?
DDT was after all also responding to your own inquiry about the identification of jews and the "incentives" for cooperating with the destruction of the European Jews.
I noticed those birth dates as well. In light of previous comments about reconstructing errors made when records are compiled and copied I decided to wait and see what you would do with that info.
This may be redundant but ... you did notice these were 5 real people and not just trolling opportunities, didn't you?
If so I wonder if you would you like to go along with a little layman's tour of the online access provided by the archive of the city of Amsterdam.
Gezinskaarten means family cards - filed under the last name of the head of the family
Persoonskaart means personal card - filed last name / First name / Date of Birth
Woningkaarten means Housing registration card - filed by address. Records head of household by last name and people whose residence was at that address for a period of time. In case of a move the next known address is also recorded
http://stadsarchief.amsterdam.nl/
Do you think such data might provide clarity for the purpose of reconstructing and verifying the identity of five Jews whose exchange for NLG 7.50 per head was recorded by "a Clerk" at the "Zentralstelle für jüdische Auswanderung in Amsterdam" in 1943 on a receipt for the transaction. People who were subsequently deported to but never returned from Sobibor.
Have you found your way to an online source for the documents from which excerpts are posted and on which these comments are based? Can you now post a url for that receipt yourself?
Clayton Moore
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Can you imagine the locals getting into gassing vans? How long would it take for gassing vans to be recognized for what they were? Any longer than it takes a child to recognize the ice cream truck's jingle? Or the meaning of the cry of "Salvation Army" in the 50s?
Yet we're told to believe that 10s of thousands were killed in gassing vans.
Where are the Saul Revere stories?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_van
EXTANT? Who uses that word? And why? I call shenanigans.
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SanityGap
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Any one with a half decent vocabulary.
Knowing how to use said vocabulary means it's not true? Really?
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
How often have you had a gun to your head?
I do, and fairly frequently. Do not project your sub-par vocabulary onto others.
Nick Terry
Illuminator
/plonk
LemmyCaution
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Yes, because I've read about how and why. It's appalling, but it was done to people. One can imagine that, especially in the case of the hospital and psychiatric patients being gassed, there was a huge element of trust on the part of the victims.
Regarding gas vans in Chelmno, the most important names to look up are Szlama Winer and Michal Podchlebnik.
Someone trying to make a point and having a good enough vocabulary to choose the correct word to help make the point. By the same token, the person who would call shenanigans on this is someone who doesn't have a decent vocabulary and is embarrassed by his shortcomings. IMHO.
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And how does that quote address in any way shape or form AntPogo's assertion that Jews never committed crimes? You presented us with that quote in response to Snakey's response to Antpogo about Antpogo's unsupported assertion that Jews never committed crimes. It must've had something to do with supporting Antpogo's assertion that Jews don't commit crimes or else it was an attempted derail. You said it wasn't an attempted derail. You said it wasn't random as well. I'll assume you're not suffering from Holotourettes's Syndrome so what you said must make sense in the context of AntPogo's crimeless Jews. Explain yourself.
Jesus F. Christ on a popsicle stick, you're sounding like Lemmycaution and his Jagger says gas chambers gambit.
When RODOH was shut down for making deniers look good, why didn't they take you guys down with them?
Clayton Moore
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Extant was used to disguise its meaning. Plus the sentence it was in came BEFORE The existence of gas vans first came to light in 1943 during the trial of Nazi collaborators involved in the gassing of 6700 civilians in Krasnodar.
The sentence extant was in should have been the last sentence in the paragraph.
I don't know why Snakey is expending any time on this at all. KevinSilberst told us that the video shows a gas chamber execution. It doesn't. It's another example of the holocaust industry presenting evidence that isn't evidence. It's a particularly egregious one because any idiot watching the video can see that it doesn't show a gas chamber. I mean, at least with Pesye Schloss, somebody had to do some work to discover that a "credible Jewish eyewitness to the holocaust" probably exists only in the mind of a dead man who buried his diary. It only took a minute or two to see that KevinSilberst lied (or is incredibly stupid). And that point, Snakey should have just moved on and returned to asking for a video of a gas chamber execution.
He's new at this game. Maybe he still thinks you guys have some integrity and will actually answer his questions. It takes a while to realize that you guys don't have any integrity and, more importantly, you don't have any answers.
You can't even tell us what happened to millions of Jews who were allegedly exterminated. Nobody thinks you can bury hundreds of thousands of people in a small, well defined space without leaving proof of that activity behind. Dead people don't *poof* disappear into thin air. So tell me: where did they go?
ddt
Mafia Penguin
You're trying to outdo SnakeTongue in the "I don't know English" department?
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