The root cause of Africa's problems?

[mijopaalmc]

Central Europe got wiped off the map in WWII and they came back in less than one generation. It seems Africa will take several more hundred years until it reaches a level that can be called civilized.

Why is that?

You think that being part of the Eastern Bloc qualifies as coming "back in less than one generation".

Why is that?

 

[Virus]

None of which are unique to Africa. Europe, however, never became a satellite colony of more powerful monarchy that destroyed the indigenous cultures and bled the land of it resources.

Although it's the dogma of the left, it's not really accurate. Colonialism did a lot of good and most African countries ended up worse after independence.

 

[mijopaalmc]

Colonialism did a lot of good

Evidence?

Make sure you start at the beginning of the 15th century.

and most African countries ended up worse after independence.

Perhaps because the colonial powers had carved them up without respect of pre-existing ethnic and political entities. There is a reason that Yugoslavia self-destructed in a blood bath in the early 1990s.

 

[Virus]

I'd say the greatest good colonialism brought was the abolition of slavery.

How much respect did the Zanzibar Empire have for ethnic and political entities?

 

[mijopaalmc]

How much respect did the Zanzibar Empire have for ethnic and political entities?

Your point?

You seemed to be set on placing Africa's current plight solely on the Africans.

Why is it that you can't even conceive that colonialism wasn't based in white benevolence and didn't benefit the large majority of Africans?

 

[Virus]

I don't have to. It's a fact that the British provided an incorruptible civil service, balanced budgets, liberal trade laws and the rule of law. Forget about stability and prosperity without that foundation. All of those thing dissolved when they left.

Maybe we should look at how the Marxist-inspired independence movements that the left supported have ruled since then. Yes they were very keen to blame colonialism for their corruption, incompetence and misrule.

 

[mijopaalmc]

I don't have to. It's a fact that the British provided an incorruptible civil service, balanced budgets, liberal trade laws and the rule of law. All of those thing dissolved when they left.

They also marched in, destroyed the indigenous governments, enslaved the populace, and sent a good portion of the natural resources abroad.

Maybe we should look at how the Marxist-inspired independence movements that the left supported have ruled since then.

Careful...you're babbling again.

 

[Virus]

Old leftist dogmas. Reality is a bit more complicated than that.

 

[leftysergeant]

How much respect did the Zanzibar Empire have for ethnic and political entities?

Aside from the slave trade, they really showed more respect than did the British and Germans.

BTW, the Zanzibar Empire is a sort of artificial construct and was not native African. It was mostly Persian. You have not in any way supported your position that Africa's woes have nothing to do with colonial oppression.

 

[Virus]

Robert Mugabe is responsible for what Robert Mugabe did. Mengitsu is responsible for what he did. Communist rulers in Mizambique are responsible for what they did.

 

[leftysergeant]

Robert Mugabe is responsible for what Robert Mugabe did. Mengitsu is responsible for what he did. Communist rulers in Mizambique are responsible for what they did.

Had the colonial rulers allowed normal development of the indigenous cultures, the post-colonial governments would probably have been a bit more stable because there would have been competent people in place to administer them. Ethiopia and Eritrea are a separate case, but still a result of colonial hangover.

 

[Virus]

That's funny the left used to enthusiastically endorse handing the government over to Soviet-backed Marxist rebels.

 

[McHrozni]

If you’re talking culture, you’re talking race.

That explains why no black man could ever become US president.

Oh wait

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

Had the colonial rulers allowed normal development of the indigenous cultures, the post-colonial governments would probably have been a bit more stable because there would have been competent people in place to administer them. Ethiopia and Eritrea are a separate case, but still a result of colonial hangover.

Define "normal development" please. Tribalism in Africa predates European conquests. Perhaps you wanted to say if Europeans had destroyed indigenous cultures more thoroughly?

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

Perhaps because the colonial powers had carved them up without respect of pre-existing ethnic and political entities. There is a reason that Yugoslavia self-destructed in a blood bath in the early 1990s.

And which reason is that?

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

Similar issues exist in Bahrain and the UAE, possibly Kuwait as well. Wealth generated from oil led to a society where most of the service and menial jobs are being done by imported labor from places like the Philippines, Indonesia and South Asia. The problem is that people from those countries don't speak Arabic, though there is a reasonable chance they speak English to some degree. As more and more foreign workers come in and become the drivers, maids, gardeners and shop staff, locals needed to know English to communicate with them. Soon use of English became widespread.

You can live quite comfortably in the UAE, Bahrain or Qatar and never know Arabic. Most of my colleagues do not know Arabic and some have been here more than 5 years.

Hm, interesting. This imported laborers thing is pretty widespread in the Arab world. Do you happen to know whats domestic unemployment rate? Libya had a pretty dismal situation: ~20% of workforce was imported and ~20% of citizens were unemployed. I imagine something similar could happen in the Gulf as well ... is it like this?

Unfortunately I do not know how much school time is spent on religious study in local schools. I do know what that in the local school system any promising students are sent to high school at "Science School" (that's what my Qatari friends called it). I think the high school was simply more academic-focused than other schools rather than pure-science curriculum but they did take various science classes there.

Okay, this doesn't look bad, at least on the first glance. I heard that Saudis have mandatory religious subjects on all levels of academia, but I doubt this is very widespread. You'd probably know it
How religious are the Qatari?

McHrozni

 

[mijopaalmc]

And which reason is that?

McHrozni

Yugoslavia was a patchwork nation-state cobbled together from the detritus of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The constituent ethnicities had long-standing religio-political feuds stretching far back into the Middle Ages. Without the strong centralized support of the Austro-Hungarian Empire or the Soviet sphere of influence, the hatreds of the past re-emerged in the Croatian and Bosnian genocides of the early 1990's.

 

[mijopaalmc]

Old leftist dogmas. Reality is a bit more complicated than that.

So the indescriminate and massive enslavement of the West African populace didn't destabilize the kingdoms that depended of the West Africans' being in West Africa?

And the ensuing political turmoil didn't allow the European to wrest power from the indigenous populations?

 

[leftysergeant]

Define "normal development" please. Tribalism in Africa predates European conquests. Perhaps you wanted to say if Europeans had destroyed indigenous cultures more thoroughly?

Had they allowed the locals to keep their grazing lands and small farms and not taken the best for the foreign planters, and had not insisted on strict segregation of blacks and whites, had the same educational opportunities been available to all, the native population would have been more prosperous and would have been in the position to administer thier own governmental affairs from day one of independance.

 

[McHrozni]

Yugoslavia was a patchwork nation-state cobbled together from the detritus of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The constituent ethnicities had long-standing religio-political feuds stretching far back into the Middle Ages. Without the strong centralized support of the Austro-Hungarian Empire or the Soviet sphere of influence, the hatreds of the past re-emerged in the Croatian and Bosnian genocides of the early 1990's.

Switzerland is a patchwork nation-state cobbled together from the the Holy Roman Empire. The constituent ethnicities have a long-standing religio-political feuds stretching far back into the Antiquity, not just the Middle Ages. Yet, the situation in Switzerland couldn't be more different. Why?

As a side note, Soviet influence in Yugoslavia pretty much ended in 1949.

McHrozni