The root cause of Africa's problems?

[Undesired Walrus]

Bad culture.

Oh Virus, what would we do without your remarkably in-depth analysis of the issues that leave the rest of us scratching our heads.

Pray tell, is this the culture of Abayon people in Nigeria, the Edo of Niger, the Bantus of Uganda, the Muslims of Somalia, the Christians of Egypt, the whites of South Africa or Zambia, the Pentecostals in Eritrea or the MoleDagbane people of Ghana?

 

[bigjelmapro]

Africa's problems are largely due to colonialism.

Arguing otherwise is arguing from a position of extreme ignorance.

You cannot expect culture(s) to develop when they are subjugated, slaved out, forced off their land, killed, oppressed and excluded from any meaningful participation in government.
...

Like the Bushmen have been and still are?

 

[TriangleMan]

Sorry, for jumping into a side-topic a little late . . .

That's true, although I think they didn't go stupid, but rather failed to advance any. I think that the present Arab world is actually more conductive to science and technology than it was 500 years ago, albeit not by much. By contrast, Europe (for example) is so much more conductive to science and technology it simply ceased to even be a race some 400 years ago or so, and the rate of differance increased exponentially ever since.

The Islamic world ran into a few problems that impeded further development and the timing of the decline varied: in the East it was primarily due to the Mongol invasions followed by rule under the Ottomans (who for some reason were not particularly inclined to focus on science or technological advancement, to their eventual detriment), in the West the last bastion of the “Islamic Golden Age”, was conquered by the Spanish in the 15th century. War and strife. I don't think anyone would say the Romans simply "went stupid" either.

During this time most of the Arabian Peninsula was occupied by poorly educated nomadic tribes. The major centers of learning in the Islamic world weren’t on the peninsula: Damascus, Baghdad, Cairo, Córdoba. I would say that the Arabian Peninsula is entering its first “Golden Age”, not the second.

In an earlier post it was also noted that the number of scientific publications in Arabic are far less than in other languages. I think a lot of that may have to do with that most scientists and researchers in this part of the world publish in English. Here in Qatar almost all schooling is done in English, from elementary school all the way through university, and I've yet to meet a Qatari under the age of 60 who was not fluent to some level in English. If you are a scientist or researcher it would make sense to publish your work in English, where it would get a wider audience, than in Arabic.

It is starting to become an issue here that many young Qataris are more fluent in English than they are Arabic.

 

[marplots]

To the OP:

Cassava

 

[McHrozni]

The Islamic world ran into a few problems that impeded further development and the timing of the decline varied: in the East it was primarily due to the Mongol invasions followed by rule under the Ottomans (who for some reason were not particularly inclined to focus on science or technological advancement, to their eventual detriment), in the West the last bastion of the “Islamic Golden Age”, was conquered by the Spanish in the 15th century. War and strife. I don't think anyone would say the Romans simply "went stupid" either.

Well, the Romans as such didn't so much "go stupid" as ceased to exist as such. But yes, rule by less than enlightened rulers was what ended the Islamic Golden Age.

During this time most of the Arabian Peninsula was occupied by poorly educated nomadic tribes. The major centers of learning in the Islamic world weren’t on the peninsula: Damascus, Baghdad, Cairo, Córdoba. I would say that the Arabian Peninsula is entering its first “Golden Age”, not the second.

Interesting perspective, and a good point.

In an earlier post it was also noted that the number of scientific publications in Arabic are far less than in other languages. I think a lot of that may have to do with that most scientists and researchers in this part of the world publish in English. Here in Qatar almost all schooling is done in English, from elementary school all the way through university, and I've yet to meet a Qatari under the age of 60 who was not fluent to some level in English. If you are a scientist or researcher it would make sense to publish your work in English, where it would get a wider audience, than in Arabic.

It is starting to become an issue here that many young Qataris are more fluent in English than they are Arabic.

That's interesting. How much of an exception is Quatar in this regard in the Arab world? Is it normal or widespread? I imagine it differs from country to country.
Also how much time is spent on religious studies? I've heard how bad is it in Saudi Arabia and it's no wonder it's a backwards country and likely to remain such for the forseeable future.

McHrozni

 

[funk de fino]

And it has come to pass, that this forum has made me realise that most of the posters here who use the word culture, dont know what that is, and most of them are raving bigots or modern day keyboard crusaders.

How sad.

 

[theprestige]

Pray tell, is this the culture of Abayon people in Nigeria, the Edo of Niger, the Bantus of Uganda, the Muslims of Somalia, the Christians of Egypt, the whites of South Africa or Zambia, the Pentecostals in Eritrea or the MoleDagbane people of Ghana?

Yes.

 

[fuelair]

At the risk of repeating myself (from other threads), I really strongly suggest reading Guns, Germs and Steel and God and Gold The two combined are quite explanatory of the situation being discussed (there are others, but those two will hit it in pretty much all important ways).

 

[Virus]

Western cultural supremacy is due to ideas, not geography.

If you believe in this sort of rigid determinism then have to say that the poor countries will always be poor because you can change ideas, but you can't change your geography.

 

[DC]

Western cultural supremacy is due to ideas, not geography.

If you believe in this sort of rigid determinism then have to say that the poor countries will always be poor because you can change ideas, but you can't change your geography.

what is western culture?

 

[Virus]

what is western culture?

What do you think it is? What did you think it was when you claimed it was no better than anything else. Or when when you said it was bad because it caused the apocalypse?

Western culture, sometimes equated with Western civilization or European civilization, is a term used very broadly to refer to a heritage of social norms, ethical values, traditional customs, religious beliefs, political systems, and specific artifacts and technologies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

 

[DC]

What do you think it is? What did you think it was when you claimed it was no better than anything else. Or when when you said it was bad because it caused the apocalypse?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

do you believe our culture is the only thing that made us what we are or did other factors also play a large role?

 

[Virus]

do you believe our culture is the only thing that made us what we are or did other factors also play a large role?

99.9% culture.

 

[DC]

99.9% culture.

 

[TriangleMan]

That's interesting. How much of an exception is Quatar in this regard in the Arab world? Is it normal or widespread? I imagine it differs from country to country.Also how much time is spent on religious studies? I've heard how bad is it in Saudi Arabia and it's no wonder it's a backwards country and likely to remain such for the forseeable future.

Similar issues exist in Bahrain and the UAE, possibly Kuwait as well. Wealth generated from oil led to a society where most of the service and menial jobs are being done by imported labor from places like the Philippines, Indonesia and South Asia. The problem is that people from those countries don't speak Arabic, though there is a reasonable chance they speak English to some degree. As more and more foreign workers come in and become the drivers, maids, gardeners and shop staff, locals needed to know English to communicate with them. Soon use of English became widespread.

You can live quite comfortably in the UAE, Bahrain or Qatar and never know Arabic. Most of my colleagues do not know Arabic and some have been here more than 5 years.

Unfortunately I do not know how much school time is spent on religious study in local schools. I do know what that in the local school system any promising students are sent to high school at "Science School" (that's what my Qatari friends called it). I think the high school was simply more academic-focused than other schools rather than pure-science curriculum but they did take various science classes there.

 

[Humes fork]

And it has come to pass, that this forum has made me realise that most of the posters here who use the word culture, dont know what that is, and most of them are raving bigots or modern day keyboard crusaders.

How sad.

I assume you have no objections to honor killings, genital mutilations, blood feuds and the like. Certainly you are not one of those bigots who prefer some cultural traits over others, are you?

 

[mijopaalmc]

I assume you have no objections to honor killings, genital mutilations, blood feuds and the like. Certainly you are not one of those bigots who prefer some cultural traits over others, are you?

None of which are unique to Africa. Europe, however, never became a satellite colony of more powerful monarchy that destroyed the indigenous cultures and bled the land of it resources.

 

[MaGZ]

Africa's problems are largely due to colonialism.

Arguing otherwise is arguing from a position of extreme ignorance.

You cannot expect culture(s) to develop when they are subjugated, slaved out, forced off their land, killed, oppressed and excluded from any meaningful participation in government.

And the effects of these actions take longer than a generation or two to overcome.

Take South Africa for example, 18 years since our first democratic elections and the advances we have made are incredible. Even so, the systemic results of Apartheid are still very apparent and make it very difficult for the poor to make an improvement in their lives. It's happening, but in spite of, not due to, the influence of "Western Culture".

This of course leads to a new issue which is, what exactly is defined as "Western Culture". Is an African Politician driving the latest BMW, wearing an Armani suit and talking on his iPhone part of Western Culture or African Culture? Is a traditional healer that uses a Facebook page to reach customers part of African culture or Western culture? Is a white South African working for a black South African part of Western Culture or African Culture?

You can't claim one is superior to the other if you cannot differentiate between them.

And finally, to underscore the theme in this thread that Africa is an amazingly diverse place I will layout some of this African's current problems:

(1) Sitting at work not really wanting to see a Masters Student and discuss their research topic of Virtual Worlds and Team building. (Black African student btw).
(2) Wondering what to do with a colleague of his, hailing from Eritriea, who doesn't always do his work.
(3) Trying to figure out if he has time to play the Diablo III open beta this weekend.

I'm wondering if the "superior" Westen culture could help me with any of those?

Central Europe got wiped off the map in WWII and they came back in less than one generation. It seems Africa will take several more hundred years until it reaches a level that can be called civilized.

Why is that?

 

[MaGZ]

Oh please, the very same thing was true for Europe, China, Japan ... and it didn't have the same effects as it did in Africa. Furthermore, countries like Ethiopia, that have had almost no colonial history, are faring no better than the ones that have been colonized for an extensive period of time. Epic Fail, with a big F.



Very few people, if any, are claiming any sort of overall superiority. All cultures have their own sets of problems and issues. That said, African culture is still a major cause of African problems - specifically, blaming colonialism for current events is a major source of problems in Africa.

McHrozni

If you’re talking culture, you’re talking race.

 

[fuelair]

Virus and MagZ: you ignore this at your (argumentative) peril:
At the risk of repeating myself (from other threads), I really strongly suggest reading Guns, Germs and Steel and God and Gold The two combined are quite explanatory of the situation being discussed (there are others, but those two will hit it in pretty much all important ways).