General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[TSR]

So much "forged" as the pictures you use in your avatar profile...

I could give you the provenance of my avatar pick, if I cared to use it as a point of evidence.

How about you with that forged pic of Hitler?

No, the topic is not my denial of reality but the denial of the holocaust concept.

What, exactly, is this "Holocaust concept" and from where did you get it?

There are no lights showing any attempts of mass extermination.

Perhaps no "lights", but there are mountains of other evidence to support that understanding of these events.

You know -- the stuff from which you've been running this entire thread?

The holocaust is a dark paradox and it serve as the utmost proof for the scientific awareness.

CAre to rephrase so that this is readable in English?

Yes, we are eternally doomed to repeat the cycle. The law of death is unchangeable. Not even science can infringe this law.

Repeat *what* cycle?

I am not waving hands, but using them to type keys.

Into fairly random strings of characters, for all of the meaning they convey.

 

[TSR]

So Nick Terry, did you read "Night" yet?

Did you see The Last Days and The Last Days of the Big Lie?

How about The Fifth Diamond? Did you read that Nick Terry?

Same questions for
LemmyCaution? abaddon? LSSBB? Worclaw? ANTPogo? Moss? TSR? 000063? MG1962?? carlitos? Tomtomkent? Bluespaceoddity? dafydd? OCaptain? Spui? KDLarsen? dudalb? Mudcat? uke2se? BaaBaa? BazBear? tsig?

Is there a particular reason, other than your obsession, that any of us should have done?

Which books by *real* historians have you read, CM?

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

An Attempt at Re-Writing Irene Weisberg Zisblatt's Biography

Who knows. What I do know is that you don't have policy that allegedly killed 4.5 to 6 million Jewish children, women, and men and then march a thousand or so Jewish women between camps for 6 months.

She's just another liar in a parade of liars.

url removed

Does Dr. Neander succeed in reconstructing where Irene Zisblatt was and what happened to her during the period of the twelve year Reich, based on sources outside her own accounts? Which, as I indicated, I have not read myself. Have you?

In 1945 Mirjam Blits wrote down her experiences in the nazi camps. Her account was published in 1961 as "Auschwitz 13917". Just this year her book was re-published.

She wrote about something that puzzled her upon arrival in Birkenau at the end of a death march and train ride following the evacuation of Majdanek in July 1944. This is how she wrote it down in her original 1945 statement: "Het was een groot raadsel dat vrouwen, die kersvers uit hun vaderland kwamen en goed doorvoed waren, met duizenden tegelijk door de pijp gingen, terwijl wij, die toch eigenlijk niets meer waard waren, gespaard werden."

My translation:
"It was a big riddle that women, who arrived fresh from their homelands and were well fed, went directly through the pipe, while we, who really had no value left, were spared."

This is after she saw her friend Klaartje Gompertz get shot for being unable to continue from exhaustion on one of those marches but throughout her account Mirjam Blits indeed gives examples of how the treatment of the women in her group varied from time to time and from location to location. For example, she helped clear corpses and property of Jews murdered during Erntefest in Trawniki but mentions that food was plentiful and conditions and treatment of them improved gradually while they were there. She also mentions that all the men in her group were shot after the corpse clearing work was done.

It has been pointed out repeatedly that you are battling a straw man version of the period. You're not telling us anything new and your oversimplifications and non-sequitur slogans will not do damage to the actual historical record. We do have policies and changes in those policies and procedures over time that explain these seeming contradictions. We also have deviations from policy because not all "regulations" were followed to the letter by every German. Can you finally deal with the 12 year Reich on such terms or will you continue with the caricatures as you have been for years now?

Can you also help out SnakeTongue? Here are the first lines of the first chapter of the 2012 edition of Auschwitz 13917:
"Razzia’s op straat en ’s avonds Joden weghalen uit de huizen, ook mij is dat overkomen.
’s Avonds, donderdag 25 februari 1943, werd er om tien uur gebeld. Ik lag al in bed. Ja hoor, SD, zwarte politie, per- soonsbewijscontrole. Onze J bleef niet uit en we moesten mee."

My translation:
"Razzias in the street and removing Jews from the houses, I was one of those who experienced these.
On the evening of Thursday 25 February 1943 at 10 pm the doorbell rang. I was already in bed. Yes indeed, SD, black police, inspection of identity cards. The J on our cards did not go unnoticed and we had to go with them."

Can either of you explain how the "J" ended up on the ID cards of Mirjam Penha Blits and her husband Elias "Eddy" Penha? Why did a J on her card result in arrest and deportation? What happened to her husband and the rest of her family? Any alternatives for the version of events she wrote down in 1945? Mirjam Blits, as you may remember from previous comments, was one of the 18 people - out of 34.313 -who came back alive without her relatives after deportation to Sobibor.

Can you explain to me again why you want sources from before 1950 while at the same time pretending they don't exist or that "we" aren't aware of them?


(Sources added.
Verklaring Mirjam Blits, NIOD Toegang 250d, Inventaris 750 - not accessible online.
Auschwitz 13917 Hoe ik de Duitse Concentratiekampen overleefde, Mirjam Blits, Elsevier 1961. Just Publishers 2012 - not accessible online)

 

[tsig]

So now the German guards performed all the labor?

The Germans stabbed 'em, the Jews slabbed 'em.

 

[tsig]

Adolf Hitler did not have any "day off". He had millions of volks to look after.

You just cannot understand that role.
Adolf Hitler had more skills than you are going to achieve in your whole life...

Loser of the biggest war in history.

Hitler got more Germans killed than anyone before him so he really looked after his volks.

 

[Nick Terry]

The requirement was a source.

a place, person, or thing from which something comes or can be obtained:
mackerel is a good source of fish oil

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/source?region=us&q=source​

I located the URL which indicate the source. If the requirement was to provide the evidence, I would had answered that I could not.

Source and evidence are two different words.

No, the requirement was that you find the document online, which you couldn't, thereby demonstrating that many documents are not online. As TSR said, the whole thing went whoosh over your head.

 

[tsig]

Looks like somebody sure loves Hitler. A lot.

Never! We've been assured that holocaust denial has nothing to do with Hitlerhugging, it's a pure,noble search for the truth.

 

[LemmyCaution]

As you, I also do not know who estimated. That is why I am asking. Where this number come from?

I don't think any social scientist estimated that number. As I noted, I can find an estimate made by a social scientist of 5.1 million Jewish victims. If you don't know of an estimate of 6 million made by a social scientist, why are you asking who made such an estimate? This seems illogical.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Dr. Neander's revised version.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.jp/2010/01/irene-zisblatt-diamond-girl-fact-or.html

Huh? What's the point of the Germans marching these women around if they were killing millions of Jewish children, women, and men?

Let's introduce Clayton to that most basic of concepts, time. It is interesting, on another forum where deniers also prance, deniers also struggle with the concept of time and the basic understanding, which most humans achieve one way or another, that, because of time, everything does not happen at once and the same things do not happen always.

 

[Nick Terry]

If you know the numerical sources are not precise, why do you use them? For dramatization?

For the same reason that the Dresden Commission stated the not very precise 'up to 25,000 were killed' - because orders of magnitude can be established even if absolutely precise numbers cannot.

EVIDENCE, not sources. You missed the word...

I've stopped caring, because you are quite obviously trolling. Badly.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

It has been explained to you why URLs were not posted immediately.
Was that aspect of persecution during the 12 year Reich news to you when DDT mentioned it? Where did you look after you were confronted with it? Were the hints useful? What have you found yourself so far?

"Geen Straf
bij tijdige aanwijzing van verborgen joden en joodsche vermogenswaarden.
Van bevoegde Duitsche zijde wordt op het volgende gewezen:
Sedert de afkondiging van de beschikking van de Generalkommissar fuer das Sicherheitswesen inzake het verblijf van joden in de provincien is een groot aantal voortvluchtige Joden of verborgen Joodsche vermogenswaarden door de medewerking van de bevolking achterhaald. Met het oog op de vrijwillig en tijdig verstrekte aanwijzingen zijn in alle gevallen de Nederlanders en hun gezinnen, die oorspronkelijk daaraan deel hadden, zonder straf er vanaf gekomen.
Daarentegen moesten onlangs een aantal Nederlanders worden gearresteerd, die getracht hadden te verhinderen dat de politie kennis kreeg van het verblijf van verborgen Joden of vermogenswaarden.
Ten einde een vergissing in zake het tot het Joodsche ras behooren van woningzoekende personen en tevens het gevaar van strafbare handelingen te vermijden, wordt dringend aanbevolen alle in huiselijke gemeenschap opgenomen personen overeenkomstig de bepalingen onverwijld aan te geven bij de meest nabije politie autoriteit."

Dordrechtse Courant Woensdag 14 April 1943
http://resources2.kb.nl/010410000/pdf/DDD_010412958.pdf

Do you require translation for Dutch language material?

My translation.
No punishment for timely reporting of hidden Jews and Jewish property.
Authorities on the German side alert to the following:
Since the promulgation of the order by the GeneralKommissar fuer das Sicherheitswesen regarding the Jews staying in the provinces, a large number of fugitive Jews and hidden Jewish assets have been recovered with the assistance of the population.
In light of the voluntary and timely nature of their cooperation those Dutchmen and their relatives, who were originally involved, who provided information have in all cases been released without punishment.
On the other hand, a number of Dutchmen had to be arrested who had attempted to prevent the police from gaining information regarding the location of hidden Jews and Jewish assets.
To avoid mistakes regarding the membership in the Jewish race of those seeking housing and to avoid the risk of criminal activities, it is urgently recommended that all people in included in your household are reported immediately with the nearest police authority in accordance with regulations

You were interested in the text after the "head line", weren't you?

 

[LemmyCaution]

The problem with this type of comment/response/rational is that the 3,000,000 number of alleged Jewish gassing victims eliminates any possibility of an entire camp population being NOT aware of the alleged gassing activity.

That knowledge would preclude any tricking gassing victims into a gas chamber. That said, chaos would be rampant because a looming gas chamber threat.

Here is someone, all worked up about the "impossibilities" of the mass murder, who could not, apparently if his life depended on it, tell how witnesses and historians have described the killing process at Treblinka or Chelmno, to choose 2 examples. He's already displayed staggering ignorance regarding Birkenau, so his bafflement over the other camps is a foregone conclusion. This argument from impossibility is really Clayton's way of saying that he is clueless about the sources.

 

[Nick Terry]

Dr. Neander's revised version.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.jp/2010/01/irene-zisblatt-diamond-girl-fact-or.html

Huh? What's the point of the Germans marching these women around if they were killing millions of Jewish children, women, and men?

They had to be guarded 24/7, fed, clothed. etc.

Seems to me they were honoring their responsibility to provide for the inmates of the abandoned transit/work camps.

It seems to everyone else that you don't have the slightest grasp of the history of the Holocaust. Gassing ceased at Birkenau at the start of November 1944. There were about 300,000 Jews kept alive in German hands as forced labourers as of this moment, whereas more than 5 million Jews* had died up to that point. The 300,000 Jewish concentration camp inmates as of November 1944 were decimated in the last six months of the war, with about 100,000 dying.

*before you wheel out a predictable strawman, no, I don't think it was exactly 6 million.

 

[Clayton Moore]

It seems to everyone else that you don't have the slightest grasp of the history of the Holocaust. Gassing ceased at Birkenau at the start of November 1944. There were about 300,000 Jews kept alive in German hands as forced labourers as of this moment, whereas more than 5 million Jews* had died up to that point. The 300,000 Jewish concentration camp inmates as of November 1944 were decimated in the last six months of the war, with about 100,000 dying.

*before you wheel out a predictable strawman, no, I don't think it was exactly 6 million.

The marching women didn't work.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Dr. Neander's revised version.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.jp/2010/01/irene-zisblatt-diamond-girl-fact-or.html

Between May 16 and 26, 1944: Irene arrives at Auschwitz. Being 15 ½ years old and healthy, she escapes gassing on arrival. She is not taken in (registered and tattooed with an Auschwitz prisoner number), but committed to Block 8 of sector BIIc of Birkenau, a transit camp for women.

June to September 1944: Such as all "transit Jews," Irene is only occasionally assigned to a work detail. She is lucky to survive the selections for the gas chamber frequently performed in this camp sector by Dr. Mengele and his colleagues.

So now team Holocaust says the non-working children/women were not killed because the alleged gas chambers were no longer being used? So why were they being marched around for almost a year?

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

The marching women didn't work.

Your own example of one contradicts you. (So does mine.)

"Immediately after September 28, 1944: Irene is transferred out to concentration camp Gross Rosen, where she obtains the prisoner number 61397 [78] and is sent to sub-camp Schlesiersee I. There she works in a munitions packing factory.[79]"

 

[Nick Terry]

The marching women didn't work.

According to Dr Neander's reconstruction, Zisblatt worked in a factory at Schleiersee I sub-camp of Gross-Rosen for nearly four months. Then the Gross-Rosen complex was evacuated in late January 1945 because the Soviets were advancing. The prisoners had no choice about this (nor at Auschwitz, despite denier lies about Wiesel's memoir).

Since this occurs after the cessation of gassing at Birkenau in November 1944 and after the time when the Final Solution was regarded as 'over' by Himmler and the SS, there is no contradiction.

Nor is there any contradiction with some groups of prisoners being marched all over the countryside and other groups arriving by train at work-sites. The SS intended to put evacuated prisoners to work, but in some cases could not, because of the increasing disorganisation of the Reich and the impending collapse. Because the prisoners were marched all over the countryside and shuttled from camp to camp in the last months of the war, many became exhausted and died. The SS also killed some of the weakened prisoners, but not systematically. By the spring of 1945, they simply dumped weakened prisoners in camps like Belsen, resulting in an inferno.

Dr Neander's summary shows that after six weeks of marching, Zisblatt's group reached Helmbrechts, which was an armaments factory, but this factory was no longer operational, because of shortages of materials, transport problems etc. This is only two months before the end of the war, the Third Reich is collapsing. There was chaos, this is an example of it.

In the same time-frame, early 1945, Himmler was already negotiating with Sweden in what he thought would be negotiations with the Allies, to save his skin, and was also using some camp prisoners as bargaining chips. He did this behind Hitler's back; when Hitler found out, he expelled Himmler from the Party. Again: chaos and disorganisation.

 

[dafydd]

According to Dr Neander's reconstruction, Zisblatt worked in a factory at Schleiersee I sub-camp of Gross-Rosen for nearly four months. Then the Gross-Rosen complex was evacuated in late January 1945 because the Soviets were advancing. The prisoners had no choice about this (nor at Auschwitz, despite denier lies about Wiesel's memoir).

Since this occurs after the cessation of gassing at Birkenau in November 1944 and after the time when the Final Solution was regarded as 'over' by Himmler and the SS, there is no contradiction.

Nor is there any contradiction with some groups of prisoners being marched all over the countryside and other groups arriving by train at work-sites. The SS intended to put evacuated prisoners to work, but in some cases could not, because of the increasing disorganisation of the Reich and the impending collapse. Because the prisoners were marched all over the countryside and shuttled from camp to camp in the last months of the war, many became exhausted and died. The SS also killed some of the weakened prisoners, but not systematically. By the spring of 1945, they simply dumped weakened prisoners in camps like Belsen, resulting in an inferno.

Dr Neander's summary shows that after six weeks of marching, Zisblatt's group reached Helmbrechts, which was an armaments factory, but this factory was no longer operational, because of shortages of materials, transport problems etc. This is only two months before the end of the war, the Third Reich is collapsing. There was chaos, this is an example of it.

In the same time-frame, early 1945, Himmler was already negotiating with Sweden in what he thought would be negotiations with the Allies, to save his skin, and was also using some camp prisoners as bargaining chips. He did this behind Hitler's back; when Hitler found out, he expelled Himmler from the Party. Again: chaos and disorganisation.

''Under the guidance of the *World Jewish Congress (WJC), toward the end of the war, Sweden became an important center for the dispatch of food parcels to concentration camp inmates, mainly in Germany. Finally the ties formed by the representative of the WJC, Hillel Storch, with Himmler's masseur, Kersten, led to the historic meeting of Norbert Mazur with Himmler on the eve of Germany's final defeat (April 20–21, 1945). Following their negotiations, many more thousands of concentration camp inmates were included in the rescue operation of Count Folke *Bernadotte. Among the almost 21,000 thus rescued were 3,500 Jews, mostly women. After the war some 10,000 more were brought to Sweden by the Red Cross and UNRRA. Altogether, more than 200,000 refugees – Finns, Norwegians, Danes, Jews and others – reached Sweden during and after the war.''

 

[Clayton Moore]

According to Dr Neander's reconstruction, Zisblatt worked in a factory at Schleiersee I sub-camp of Gross-Rosen for nearly four months. Then the Gross-Rosen complex was evacuated in late January 1945 because the Soviets were advancing. The prisoners had no choice about this (nor at Auschwitz, despite denier lies about Wiesel's memoir).

Since this occurs after the cessation of gassing at Birkenau in November 1944 and after the time when the Final Solution was regarded as 'over' by Himmler and the SS, there is no contradiction.

Nor is there any contradiction with some groups of prisoners being marched all over the countryside and other groups arriving by train at work-sites. The SS intended to put evacuated prisoners to work, but in some cases could not, because of the increasing disorganisation of the Reich and the impending collapse. Because the prisoners were marched all over the countryside and shuttled from camp to camp in the last months of the war, many became exhausted and died. The SS also killed some of the weakened prisoners, but not systematically. By the spring of 1945, they simply dumped weakened prisoners in camps like Belsen, resulting in an inferno.

Dr Neander's summary shows that after six weeks of marching, Zisblatt's group reached Helmbrechts, which was an armaments factory, but this factory was no longer operational, because of shortages of materials, transport problems etc. This is only two months before the end of the war, the Third Reich is collapsing. There was chaos, this is an example of it.

In the same time-frame, early 1945, Himmler was already negotiating with Sweden in what he thought would be negotiations with the Allies, to save his skin, and was also using some camp prisoners as bargaining chips. He did this behind Hitler's back; when Hitler found out, he expelled Himmler from the Party. Again: chaos and disorganisation.

That explanation is just so much clap trap. After three years of allegedly murdering millions of noncombatants the guards who oversaw the alleged gassing are galavanting around Europe with exhausted women hardly able to keep up. So these soldiers require 6 weeks of supplies for themselves and hundreds of women?

And, AND these women are not the only camp evacuations in progress.

Shouldn't those guards be aware that they allegedly gassed and killed millions of Jewish children, women, and men. Did they think or did the High Command think that they had gotten away with murdering 6/4.5 million Jewish children, women, and men. Yet they trudged around with group after group evacuating noncombatants from camp after camp.

 

[Moss]

This is still the same mistaken assumption you have been told about before CM: Nazi policies against the Jews were not always the same at each moment and every place. Like most things in life and history it is normally more complicated than that.