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Measles returning

Skeptic Ginger said:
He may have. Be he also got his ideas from a motive to license and sell his own version of measles vaccine.
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As well as a patent to detect the measles virus in body fluids and tissues, including gut biopsies.

Ironically, a month before he published the damaging paper that shall not be named, he had a PhD candidate student in his lab who was using his new kits to find the measles virus in all of the unnecessary biopsies of gut tissue *etc* (spinal taps on those poor children).

The PhD student didn't find the measles virus in any of the samples.

http://briandeer.com/wakefield/nick-chadwick.htm

This is the issue with the whole MMR thing, he said that the measles virus, but ONLY the virus found in the MMR jab, not from catching measles or from a single jab, would cause a bowel condition that would lead to autism.

How it has spiraled into such utter rubbish is beyond me.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Just an FYI from a compulsive information person. It's not exactly that the MMRs go "out of date".

First, an MMR so far appears to provide lifetime immunity. But the failure rate is less if people get two doses. So everyone needs two doses unless they had measles.

Second, for those vaccinated before 1968 (in the US, dates may differ in different countries), a killed vaccine was used. That vaccine immunity does wear off over time. 30 years before 2000 was about that time frame so perhaps you had had the killed vaccine. You might also have only had one MMR when 2 are recommended.

And if anyone is interested, for the majority of people on the planet born before 1957, they most likely had measles. It's that contagious. The first vaccine in the US was introduced in 1963. So some people born between 1956 and '63 also had measles but it would take a blood test or a documented physician diagnosis to be certain.
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I was born in 1955, and have never had an MMR vaccine. However, I had both measles and mumps as a small child (so I was told by my mother. I don't remember either) AFAIK, I have never had rubella.
 
Tatyana said:
As well as a patent to detect the measles virus in body fluids and tissues, including gut biopsies.

Ironically, a month before he published the damaging paper that shall not be named, he had a PhD candidate student in his lab who was using his new kits to find the measles virus in all of the unnecessary biopsies of gut tissue *etc* (spinal taps on those poor children).

The PhD student didn't find the measles virus in any of the samples.

http://briandeer.com/wakefield/nick-chadwick.htm

This is the issue with the whole MMR thing, he said that the measles virus, but ONLY the virus found in the MMR jab, not from catching measles or from a single jab, would cause a bowel condition that would lead to autism.

How it has spiraled into such utter rubbish is beyond me.
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Peoples desire to believe runs far ahead of their ability to fact check.:(
 
I don't understand why there's the choice of opting out of vaccines.

No, I'm not kidding. I'm all for civil rights and personal liberty when they aren't directly killing children, but don't we lock people up for being criminally irresponsible and doing stupid things that lead to accidental deaths and injury?
 
I was watching a slide-show of some Victorian postcards mainly dealing with the police force. One of them was an anti-vax propaganda shot.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
I was watching a slide-show of some Victorian postcards mainly dealing with the police force. One of them was an anti-vax propaganda shot.
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I don't know what you are talking about but I'm curious. What postcard was this and what do Victorian postcards have to do with vaccines?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Weren't you capable of keeping your own records? :roll eyes:
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I had my receipt, but it didn't do me any good. There wasn't any mechanism set up so that a faculty member could present evidence of having been vaccinated and get out of being vaccinated again. They didn't accept even their own receipts.

t tried. The choices were to get vaccinated again meat-market style in the gymnasium, or not get vaccinated in the few days they required it, accept the unpaid leave of absence, and then get reinstated. I could have pushed it, but I would have had to go through some sort of adversarial legal process to get back pay. At a professor's salary, it just isn't worth it.

No offense but as someone who vaccinates thousands of people every year I'm not so empathetic with this attitude that vaccine record keeping is not an individual responsibility.
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No offense, but you don't seem to be rather staggeringly and smugly naïve about what it's like to be on the business end of a bureaucratic system.

You remind me of a nurse at a facility I had experience who admonished one of the old ladies to swing her feet before getting out of bed—in cheerful defiance of the fact that the top surfaces of all the beds were a mere 18 inches from the floor.

This is a special kind of stupidity, as smug as it is profound.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
I don't understand why there's the choice of opting out of vaccines.

No, I'm not kidding. I'm all for civil rights and personal liberty when they aren't directly killing children, but don't we lock people up for being criminally irresponsible and doing stupid things that lead to accidental deaths and injury?
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The problem here, MarkCorrigan, is that your question makes us confront whether we should license parenthood. No, I'm not kidding either. It's like diverse dystopian futures we have seen in science fiction.

Determining whether to refuse your own children vaccines is going to turn into a legal battle. It is already a culture war.
 
CORed said:
I was born in 1955, and have never had an MMR vaccine. However, I had both measles and mumps as a small child (so I was told by my mother. I don't remember either) AFAIK, I have never had rubella.
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You can get a rubella titer to see if you've had a case without being aware of it. It's not something necessarily recommended unless you are going to be around pregnant women like someone working in an OB clinic. Or if a rubella outbreak were to occur you might want to have the titer.
 
epepke said:
I had my receipt, but it didn't do me any good. There wasn't any mechanism set up so that a faculty member could present evidence of having been vaccinated and get out of being vaccinated again. They didn't accept even their own receipts.

t tried. The choices were to get vaccinated again meat-market style in the gymnasium, or not get vaccinated in the few days they required it, accept the unpaid leave of absence, and then get reinstated. I could have pushed it, but I would have had to go through some sort of adversarial legal process to get back pay. At a professor's salary, it just isn't worth it.

No offense, but you don't seem to be rather staggeringly and smugly naïve about what it's like to be on the business end of a bureaucratic system.

You remind me of a nurse at a facility I had experience who admonished one of the old ladies to swing her feet before getting out of bed—in cheerful defiance of the fact that the top surfaces of all the beds were a mere 18 inches from the floor.

This is a special kind of stupidity, as smug as it is profound.
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I have to deal with people every week that don't have a clue when their last tetanus shot was or whether they've had their hep B vaccine series. I'm sorry but I'm nice to my patients in person. Here I express my opinion more honestly and I have little empathy for adults who still expect mommy to take care of their health care record keeping.

It's a false analogy to claim this has anything to do with the patient care example you cited. It has to do with personal responsibility and blaming others for something you were capable of doing yourself.

This is also different from people who just don't think it is a priority to know their vaccine status. I don't fault people for having a different personal value as long as they don't turn around and blame the health care provider for not keeping the records for them.
 
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Ian said:
....
Determining whether to refuse your own children vaccines is going to turn into a legal battle. It is already a culture war.
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And yet you cannot feed your kids an all lettuce diet or not send them to school (or homeschool). We make a number of legal demands on parents. Vaccines should be seen as another legal demand, IMO, akin to feeding your kids, but obviously it isn't a unanimous opinion.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
It's a false analogy to claim this has anything to do with the patient care example you cited. It has to do with personal responsibility and blaming others for something you were capable of doing yourself.
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He DID do it. Didn't you read his post? And I have to say that it was, if not obvious, then implied that he did his part in his FIRST post. You're blaming him and being snotty when there is nothing to blame him for.

HE kept records. The school did not. The school DID NOT ACCEPT his records, and therefore required him to get vaccinated again. Thus, he got vaccinated again. What is hard about this?

I believe you that most people don't keep records. He is not one of those people.
 
Also, I agree very strongly that vaccines should be mandatory to enter school, with the only exception being compromised immune system.

It's one of the only issues I get really heated over.

I say, if you don't want to vaccinate your kids, great! Homeschool them. Choices should come with consequences, and there should be no excuse for exposing other children to a disease that could kill them.
 
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elipse said:
He DID do it. Didn't you read his post? And I have to say that it was, if not obvious, then implied that he did his part in his FIRST post. You're blaming him and being snotty when there is nothing to blame him for.

HE kept records. The school did not. The school DID NOT ACCEPT his records, and therefore required him to get vaccinated again. Thus, he got vaccinated again. What is hard about this?

I believe you that most people don't keep records. He is not one of those people.
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We don't see it the same way. It happens.
 
I'm not sure there are two (legitimate) ways to see

"I had my receipt, but it didn't do me any good. There wasn't any mechanism set up so that a faculty member could present evidence of having been vaccinated and get out of being vaccinated again. They didn't accept even their own receipts."

I should probably just let this go, but if you can't admit you're wrong about something so obvious as this, and have to say "we see it different ways," I can't have faith that you'll admit you're wrong about anything, and admitting you're wrong is a cornerstone of being a skeptic, no?

Anyway, this is off topic, so I probably won't respond again. Just wanted to mention it because "we see it different ways" (along with my favourite, "we'll just have to agree to disagree") is used so often to avoid continuing the discussion when someone feels like they might be "losing."

(Plus I thought your posts were rude, and being rude isn't okay even if you're right. And you weren't.)
 
ThunderChunky said:
Isn't that the way it is? My schools required that I got my shots.
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Not everywhere. California has what is called the "Personal Belief Exemption" or PBE which allows people to avoid vaccinations. This is thought to have contributed to the spike in pertussis back in 2010.
 
marplots said:
Not everywhere. California has what is called the "Personal Belief Exemption" or PBE which allows people to avoid vaccinations. This is thought to have contributed to the spike in pertussis back in 2010.
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I did not know that. I was forced to wear a uniform at my public school with no option of exemption, but they apparently would have allowed me to come in without vaccinations? That is ridiculous. How long have they allowed this PBE?
 
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