Vaccine/autism CT discussion

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http://www.thinktwice.com/mmr.htm

How safe is the MMR vaccine?


The drug company that makes the MMR vaccine publishes an extensive list of warnings, contraindications, and adverse reactions associated with this triple shot. These may be found in the vaccine package insert available from any doctor giving MMR, and in the Physician's Desk Reference (PDR) at the library.(8,9) The following afflictions affecting nearly every body system -- blood, lymphatic, digestive, cardiovascular, immune, nervous, respiratory, and sensory -- have been reported following receipt of the MMR shot: encephalitis, encephalopathy, neurological disorders, seizure disorders, convulsions, learning disabilities, subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE), demyelination of the nerve sheaths, Guillain-Barre' syndrome (paralysis), muscle incoordination, deafness, panniculitis, vasculitis, optic neuritis (including partial or total blindness), retinitis, otitis media, bronchial spasms, fever, headache, joint pain, arthritis (acute and chronic), transverse myelitis, thrombocytopenia (blood clotting disorders and spontaneous bleeding), anaphylaxis (severe allergic reactions), lymphadenopathy, leukocytosis, pneumonitis, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, erythema multiforme, urticaria, pancreatitis, parotitis, inflammatory bowel disease, Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, meningitis, diabetes, autism, immune system disorders, and death (Figure 49).(10,11)
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The British Medical Journal published a survey of doctor's and nurse's attitudes toward booster doses of MMR. Fifty-one percent of all U.K. doctors and nurses had reservations about or disagreed with the policy of giving an MMR booster shot, and 80 percent of all U.K. doctors would not "unequivocally recommend" the second dose to a wavering parent (Figure 50).(17)
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MMR588] I was told by the nursing school where I am enrolled, "No vaccine, no school." Even though I had all the normal vaccines as a child, I was unable to show this. Five days after I received the MMR vaccine, I was so ill that I ended up in the emergency room. The doctor told me that the MMR did not cause my sickness, and my nursing school supervisor said it was a virus. Why does the medical establishment deny vaccine reactions? Why can't they tell us this important information and let us make educated responsible decisions. The irony is that I got the vaccine and now I'm so sick that I can't go to school.
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Clayton Moore said:
http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/healthday/640537.html

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2010/04/vaccine-fever-in-oz-is-the-ris.html
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Clayton,

Why do you keep quoting articles that undermine your position? Do you read the articles at all before you post them? The New Scientist article makes it clear that there is no proof that the influenza vaccine caused the fevers, and that even if true, being vaccinated was clearly much safer than getting the flu. The Business Week article notes that although there is evidence for more fevers with the combo vaccine than with individual vaccinations, the risks are still quite low and more than justify getting vaccinated rather than getting the diseases. Both studies note that the seizures are scary, but appear to have no lasting effect.

Interestingly, both studies are from the "evil" medical researchers who you say are in a conspiracy to hide the negative side effects of vaccines. As a result of the second study, which was funded by the CDC, the CDC changed their recommendation to suggest anyone prone to or concerned about the fevers should get the separate vaccines. Makes the medical establishment sound like very careful, concerned people, doesn't it?
 
Clayton,

I know people have explained medical warning labels to you before in this forum; here we have another big circle in which you return to one of your earlier arguments that's been discredited. Try reading a bottle of over-the-counter Tyelonol- it won't be much more reassuring.

The British Medical Journal survey you quote was in 2001 right after Wakefield published his now discredited research. If you looked at subsequent surveys, by 2003 opinions had changed back and over 77% would recommend MMR even to families with a history of autism. The percent of pro-vaccination responses increased even further to 82% by 2004. Only 2% thought MMR caused autism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy

Your third point was a quote from an individual not even identified in your post. What kind of evidence do you think that is? I can quote someone I know who thinks the government is listening to his thought waves through GPS satellites. And, in fact, the individual quoted in your post has no evidence that the vaccine did make them sick.
 
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Before it is made I would also like to prevent the claim the person who talked about the effects of MMR causing her to be sick was at nursing school so she HAS to be right? Well, no. Nurses are heavily and extensively qualified, and are medically trained, but that is a diagnosis that does not fall into her training. It is also a diagnosis she can not support with evisdence.
 
This post is just a big thanks for the forbearance, patience and generosity of the posters here.
A friend of mine is a physio-therapist specialising in autistic children. I've steered him toward the many links posted up in this thread and they've been of great use to him in the most difficult part of his work- dealing with the children's parents.
 
Protecting Their Own: The Unofficial Vaccination Policy of Doctors in the Know

http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/08/...ation-policy-of-doctors-in-the-know/comments/



The Doctor on Gardasil:

"Gardasil? What the hell is that? That shouldn't be on the market for another 30 years. We have no idea if we are causing this disease to mutate and become more harmful and stronger than it is now. No idea. We'll find out I guess. Anyway, I talked about this with my partners and they were adamant, "you have to give it to your patients." I told them I am not telling my parents they have to give this to their 9 year old. I got looks like--crazy. They thought I was nuts. My partners are saying to me,"you gotta give it."

I told him I was aware of over 90 deaths and life-altering adverse reactions as the result of Gardasil. He did not respond.

The Doctor on Hepatitis B:

"I mean, they have us vaccinate jaundiced babies with Hepatitis B! What are they thinking? What is wrong with them? I mean, Geez. Is this really necessary? Come on."
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The Doctor on Vaccines in General:

"I don't vaccinate my kids. I rely on herd immunity, which is selfish I know. Herd immunity basically means I am relying on the fact that everyone else is vaccinated. I know it's wrong...They (his children) are fine. I might (vaccinate) when it comes time for them to go to high school because I don't want them to have to miss out on travel opportunities. They are all perfectly healthy."
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The Doctor on Vaccine Philosophy and Group Think:

"You do not question vaccines openly. It's not done. I know I sound ridiculous here but it's like Nazi Germany. Really, I know it sounds silly. I mean, in our own groups, of course, we question vaccines all the time, among ourselves, but you never ever say it openly. You have to understand, doctors are scientists. We pride ourselves on our knowledge. You just don't question, they look at you like you're crazy. I have to tell you to vaccinate because if I don't and your kid gets sick, I get sued. I am legally responsible. My partners are always telling me, "You make them vaccinate on schedule or they are out." You know you could get in a lot of trouble for not vaccinating yourself--you know that though--you have a medical background."
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Clayton Moore said:
I wonder how many doctors have children with autism?
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Why?

That question is pointless unless you want to spin the answer to an agenda.

If you actually wanted to prove a causal link to autism surely you would ask instead if there were any studies that looked at the occupations of parents that showed clusters of disproportionate cases.
 
Clayton Moore said:
http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/08/...ation-policy-of-doctors-in-the-know/comments/
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First question: did this agenda driven site gain permission to use the "doctor ninja" artwork or is theft of others work a sign of its quality?

Second question: how did you try to validate any of the opinions on that site are "in the know". We get platitudes "what are they thinking? Jeez?" Not data. A story that some guy claimsa doctor claims to know of 90 cases is evidence of nothing. Pretending one (possibly fictional) doctor is more in the know than all the others? Just because he is claimed to agree with your preconceptions?

So lets pretend for a second this is even remotely true. Where is the stuff that actually validates any opinion.

Gardisail: he doesn't know if its safe or not? Based on what? NOT having read the studies? Having read the studies but finding issues with the controls? The blinding? The interpretation? No. All he says he is doesn't know. Like he hasn't any knowledge to base the opinion on.

Hepp B: Oh look. Exactly the same problem. He shouts "come on!" But doesn't for asecond offer a single word on why it is a bad idea, what evidence he has, why the available studies disagree.... hmmm.

Vaccines: he is going vaccinate his kids? Can't be too bad. Shame he doesn't seem to know how how herd immunity works. He has it backwards by thinking that letting everybody else being vaccinated protects his kids, while he is infact increasing the risk of compromising the immunity the vaccinated kids have. Some doctor.

Philosophy; yeah. Assume for a second the concensus view of vaccination being beneficial and indeed essential for public health are correct. One guy dropping the Nazi bomb is an argument of emotion. It also undermined. Given the guy is meant to treat the disease, and not spread it, he has to be immunised. As his duty is to protect the health and warefare of the community, and his kids rely on this remember. Basic rules and scheduling of immunisation are somehow as evil as Nazis? Bull. There are rules governing immunisation, for the same reason lead paint is banned.

Do you have anything beyond rhetoric to offer?

Probably not or you would have offered it before now.
 
000063 said:
...Not to mention KB's point that sooner or later, someone who's in on the conspiracy is going to have a kid who becomes autistic....
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Clayton Moore said:
I wonder how many doctors have children with autism?
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Okay, it's evident that you are actually reading arguments against you, even if you ignore them and don't respond. The funny thing is that I'm sure you don't recall where you got your innovative and original idea.
 
I thought this was interesting:

Boys With Regressive Autism, but Not Early Onset Autism, Have Larger Brains Than Age-Matched Healthy Counterparts, Study Finds

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111128152410.htm

While brain size was clearly larger at age 3, the study also determined when the precocious growth began, by examining records of head circumference that provides a reasonable estimate of brain size in young children.

These analyses clearly indicated that brain growth diverged from normal at around 4 to 6 months of age. This is of particular interest, because many families believe that the trigger that led to their child's regression took place close to the time that the regression happened.

But the data reported in this paper indicate that the process leading to the enlarged brain, which presumably also is associated with the onset of autism, started when the child was a newborn.

Much remains to be elucidated regarding brain changes associated with autism, the authors note. In the current study, not all boys with regression demonstrate the precocious brain growth. The investigative team also continues efforts to define the underlying brain pathology in children with early onset autism and in girls with autism.
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And guess what, this is an American study:

The study's other authors are Nicholas Lange of the Department of Psychiatry and Biostatistics at Harvard University Schools of Medicine and Public Health McLean Hospital; Deana D. Li, Lou Ann Barnett, Aaron Lee, Tony J. Simon, Sally Rogers and Sally Ozonoff of the UC Davis MIND Institute and the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences in the UC Davis School of Medicine; and Michael H. Buonocore of the Department of Radiology, UC Davis School of Medicine.


The study was funded by grants from the National Institute of Mental Health and the University of California, Davis Medical Investigation of Neurodevelopmental Disorders (MIND) Institute.
 
abaddon said:
Natural News? Give me a break.

Here are some US studies, so where does that leave you, Clayton?
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US studies? Really?

Evaluation of altered fatty acid metabolism via gas chromatography/mass spectroscopy and Time-of-Flight Secondary Ion Mass Spectroscopy imaging the propionic acid rat model of autism spectrum disorders.

(PI: Derrick MacFabe, M.D. University of Western Ontario.)



A research project on the infectious factors of autism.

(PI: Luc Montagnier, M.D. and Corinne Skorupka M.D. Institut de Recherche {Paris})


Elevated urinary p-cresol: intestinal causes and behavioral consequences.

(PI: Antonio M. Persico, M.D. University Campus Bio-Medico {Rome})



Molecular pathways involved in oxidative stress and leaky gut impairment in autism spectrum disorders.

(PI: Dario Siniscalco, Ph.D., Anna Sapone, MD, Nicola Antonucci, MD; University of Naples, Italy)
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Clayton Moore said:
US studies? Really?
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Yes, really: there are twice as many US studies referenced on that page than you dishonestly cherry picked to whine about.

Is there a reason, other than the obvious, that you did that?

Or that you are now ignoring the study Tatyana cited?
 
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Yeah, but the Italians and the Canadians have cooties, so just being on the same interwebs gives the American studies cooties too.

Hey, maybe someone could come up with some method to inoculate folks so that their body becomes resistant to cooties before they are exposed to them. Hmm.

I totally get the logic. The American government, engineering establishment and science community are all complicit in 9/11. American historians and politicians are beholden to Zionist overlords who tell them to lie to the sheeple for whatever. But medical studies - those have to be done in America on Americans in order for them to be trustworthy. And even if they are, I will ignore them if they are listed on a page with icky Canadian cootie studies.

If it weren't affecting the alleged real lives of his alleged grandchildren, it would almost be funny.
 
Clayton Moore said:
US studies? Really?
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Why is someone who is willing to misrepresent the truth like this allowed to post here?

For those of you who didn't follow the link, here is an unedited, but shortened version:

ARI funded the following research grant proposals in 2010:
Study of anti-neuronal auto antibodies in behavioral and movement disorders.

(PI: Madeleine W. Cunningham, Ph.D. University of Oklahoma.)


Modulation of cysteine uptake and redox status by morphine, gluten-casein opiates, and naltrexone.

(PI: Richard Deth, Ph.D. Northeastern University.)

Freezer plus magnetic resonance spectroscopy for in vivo measurement of brain glutathione levels.

(PI: Martha R. Herbert, M.D., Ph.D. Harvard Medical School/Massachusetts General Hospital/TRANSCEND Research Program.)


Survey on treatment for children with autism with and without seizures.

(P.I. Richard E. Frye, M.D., Ph.D., F.A.A.P. University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston.)


Th cell polarization and candida reactivity in autistic children with food allergy

(PI: Harumi Jyonouchi, M.D. University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey-New Jersey Medical School.)


Human intestinal microbial ecology and its relationship to autism.

(PI: Rosa Krajmalnik-Brown, Ph.D. Arizona State University.)


Evaluation of altered fatty acid metabolism via gas chromatography/mass spectroscopy and Time-of-Flight Secondary Ion Mass Spectroscopy imaging the propionic acid rat model of autism spectrum disorders.

(PI: Derrick MacFabe, M.D. University of Western Ontario.)


Do vagal and circumventricular inflammation contributes to the etiology of regressive autism?

(PI: Veronica M. Miller, Ph.D. State of New York Department of Health, Wadsworth Center.)


A research project on the infectious factors of autism.

(PI: Luc Montagnier, M.D. and Corinne Skorupka M.D. Institut de Recherche {Paris})


Elevated urinary p-cresol: intestinal causes and behavioral consequences.

(PI: Antonio M. Persico, M.D. University Campus Bio-Medico {Rome})


Support for Research related to Vitamin D and probiotics.

(PI: John Green, M.D. and Gene Stubbs, M.D., P.C. Autism Research and Resources of Oregon)


Molecular pathways involved in oxidative stress and leaky gut impairment in autism spectrum disorders

(PI: Dario Siniscalco, Ph.D., Anna Sapone, MD, Nicola Antonucci, MD; University of Naples, Italy)
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This goes beyond trolling into outright dishonesty.
 
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