• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

Even Jesus couldn't convince everyone, that's why they nailed him to the cross. But something happened shortly afterward which is why the biggest church in the world is located in the heart of the Roman Empire (Rome) and why we are discussing all of this 2000 years later. All of this should have ended with a bunch of scared apostles scattering never to be heard of again, but something happened, and it didn't end that way.
However, it usually did end exactly that way. Here's Gamaliel In Acts 5, comparing Jesus' disciples with other movements (my bold):
35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. 36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. 37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. 38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
And there have been innumerable less famous groups of disciples which have disappeared as soon as their master is slain. The Jesus movement is an exception. It had strong enough delusions, or an impressive enough ideology, to survive. (Or Paul saved it by making a diluted version of its message palatable to pagans and semi-judaising "god fearers".)

But that doesn't prove it enjoyed divine protection. How many crazed preachers were active in the United States around the time of Joseph Smith? Very many. His Mormon outfit survived, while almost all the others evaporated. Does that mean that the Book of Mormon is the word of God? No way!
 
But that doesn't prove it enjoyed divine protection. How many crazed preachers were active in the United States around the time of Joseph Smith? Very many. His Mormon outfit survived, while almost all the others evaporated. Does that mean that the Book of Mormon is the word of God? No way!
Or simply that with enough attempts, even the highly improbable will necessarily happen. Sort of like the lottery. It's easy to say after-the-fact that something was fated to happen like lottery winners sometimes claim strong feelings, or prayer, or astrology, or what have you, but that's all post hoc.
 
Mark 8:38

Those who are ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of them the Son of Man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
 
Mark 8:38

Those who are ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of them the Son of Man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Yeah, but not really.

Oh they forgot that clause? Shoddy workmanship, IMHO.
 
Alas, the three day something is the thing that convinces me least of all. What happened later was that delusions and hallucinations became the starting point for a series of incoherent tales about dead people emerging from their tombs. Not merely Jesus, but lots of others too, according to Matthew. And the discrepancies and contradictions in the 3 gospel accounts of what Jesus did after he woke up (the earliest gospel Mark, in its authentic versions, tells us nothing) indicate that we're dealing with myths founded on delusions.

If others are rising from the dead that seems to take away the uniqueness of the resurrection. If any old Joe can climb out of the grave then Jesus's rising proves nothing.
 
If others are rising from the dead that seems to take away the uniqueness of the resurrection. If any old Joe can climb out of the grave then Jesus's rising proves nothing.
Maybe not just anyone. You need to be a saint. The passage, from Matt 27, is very garbled
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
The graves were opened at the time of Jesus' death, but the zombie saints stayed put in their open graves until Jesus was resurrected, whereupon they climbed out and started wandering about! To their credit, the other gospels do not contain this laughable tale.
 
Last edited:
Maybe not just anyone. You need to be a saint. The passage, from Matt 27, is very garbled The graves were opened at the time of Jesus' death, but the zombie saints stayed put in their open graves until Jesus was resurrected, whereupon they climbed out and started wandering about! To their credit, the other gospels do not contain this laughable tale.

In Christian usage, "saint" refers to any believer who is "in Christ", and in whom Christ dwells, whether in heaven or in earth.[1] (2Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 3:14-19; 2Corinthians 13:5) In Orthodox and Catholic teachings, all Christians in heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered to be worthy of higher honor, emulation, or veneration.[2][3]

Humm...

So there were dead Christians before the resurrection.

I think we have an anomaly here.
 
Maybe not just anyone. You need to be a saint. The passage, from Matt 27, is very garbled The graves were opened at the time of Jesus' death, but the zombie saints stayed put in their open graves until Jesus was resurrected, whereupon they climbed out and started wandering about! To their credit, the other gospels do not contain this laughable tale.

Hmm. I wonder how a defender of the inerrancy of the bible will defend that text.
 
Hmm. I wonder how a defender of the inerrancy of the bible will defend that text.
They are quite coy about it. It was perhaps stuck into Matthew to fulfil a prophecy in Isaiah 26:19
But your dead will live, LORD;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
So if it happened it would have been a fulfilled Biblical prophecy! Over to you, DOC. I know you like Isaian prophecies much more than I do.
 
^^^
I had to see for myself.

From: http://bible.cc/matthew/27-53.htm

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
... It is not improbable to suppose that it was, amid the other wonders attending the death of Jesus, to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah. Perhaps some who had been his open friends were raised up now as an attestation that he in whom they had believed was the Christ. What became of them after they had entered into the city whether they again died or ascended to heaven, is not revealed, and conjecture is vain...

Pass along, there. Nothing to be seen here.

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
.... establishing the truth of our Lord's resurrection in particular, and of the resurrection of the body in general, by many witnesses. Quesnel's reflections on these passages may be very useful.


"5. The rising of the bodies of the saints shows that this death of Christ is to merit, and his Gospel publish, the eternal happiness of body and soul for all that believe in his name."

It is difficult to account for the transaction mentioned Matthew 27:52, Matthew 27:53. Some have thought that these two verses have been introduced into the text of Matthew from the gospel of the Nazarenes; others think that the simple meaning is this: - by the earthquake several bodies that had been buried were thrown up and exposed to view, and continued above ground till after Christ's resurrection, and were seen by many persons in the city. Why the graves should be opened on Friday, and the bodies not be raised to life till the following Sunday, is difficult to be conceived. The place is extremely obscure.

Quite.


Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
.... These saints, I apprehend, continued on earth until our Lord's ascension, and then joining the retinue of angels, went triumphantly with him to heaven, as trophies of his victory over sin, Satan, death, and the grave, ...
I'd heard of trophy wives, but never trophy zombies.


Geneva Study Bible
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And that's that.


Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

27:51-56 ... To whom they appeared, in what manner, and how they disappeared, we are not told; and we must not desire to be wise above what is written. ...

:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
I just took another look at the link DOC gave for 60 fulfilled prophecies concerning Jesus. Here are the first 10:

Concerning His birth:
Prophesied---Fulfilled
1. Born of the seed of woman- Gen 3:15, Gal 4:4
2. Born of a virgin- Isa 7:14, Mt 1:18-25
3. Seed of Abraham- Gen 22:18, Mt 1:1
4. Seed of Isaac- Gen 21:12, Lk 3:23+34
5. Seed of Jacob- Num 24:17, Lk 3:34
6. Seed of David- Jer 23:5, Lk 3:31
7. Tribe of Judah- Gen 49:10, Rev 5:5
8. Family line of Jesse- Isa 11:1, Lk 3:32
9. Born in Bethlehem- Mic 5:2, Mt 2:1-6
10. Herod kills the children- Jer 31:15,
Mt 2:16-18

First, let's deal with the most obvious, numbers 1, 3,4 and 5: Of course Jesus would be born of a woman, whether or not he were the Messiah. He would also have to be Jewish, i.e. of the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So these aren't really divinely inspired prophecies.

As to #2, Isa. 7:14, let's put it in its proper context (Isa. 7:14 - 16):

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman [Heb. almah] shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel ["God is with us"]. He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. For, before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, he land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted.

So, Isa. 7:14 does not refer to a virgin birth. The Hebrew word for "virgin" is bethula. The word almah, which is used in Isa. 7:14 just means a young woman. Furthermore, the child spoken of in the prophecy is referred to as being alive in the time of the prophecy, i.e. during the reign of King Ahaz, who was being attacked by two kings, Pekah of Israel and Rezin of Damascus. Before the child in the prophecy is old enough to know good from evil the land of these two kings would be made desolate. This happened during the reign of the Assyrian emperor Tiglath-peliser, who dies in 727 BCE. Thus, the prophecy cannot apply to Jesus.

Prophecies 6,7 and 8 that the Messiah would be of the tribe of Judah (the only tribe left, hence the name of the nationality as "Jew"), of the house of Jesse and David are really, in essence, one prophecy, a prophecy that only holds up if we accept the word of the authors of Matthew and Luke, whose nativity stories, as I've already noted, contradict each other in every particular. The same holds true for prophecy #9, that the Messiah wold be born in Bethlehem.

Finally, let's take a look at prophecy #10: that Herod would kill the children of Bethlehem. Is that really what Jer. 31:15 predicts? Let's see:

Thus says the LORD:
"A voice is heard in Ramah,
lamentation and bitter weeping.
Rachel is weeping for her children;
she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are not.

The problem here is that Ramah, the hometown of Samuel, is in Ephraim, hence the reference to Rachel, mother of Joseph and Benjamin, weeping for her children. Thus, it is not Bethlehem. In any case, in the context of Jeremiah 13, this cannot refer to Herod's slaughter of the innocents (which was likely fictional), since verses 16 and 17 say specifically that Rachel will be comforted, that her children will return from exile. This could hardly refer to the mothers of the babies and toddlers in Bethlehem, who according to Matthew, were murdered by Herod's soldiers.

Thus, the first 10 prophecies of the 60 are complete duds.
 
Last edited:
One of my favourite bogus prophecies concerns Matthew's "fulfilment" of Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
This is a poetic parallelism. There is only one animal: the colt of a donkey is itself a donkey. But the author of Matthew misreads it, and makes Jesus ride into Jerusalem on two animals, like a circus act. So his description of the event can't be from any eyewitness; it is concocted from the prophecy. Matthew 21:7
And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.

The other Synoptics get it right. Mark 11:7
And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him.
Luke 19:35
And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.
 
So why did well known Jewish attorney Jay Sekulow (who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) convert to Christianity after reading and studying Isaiah chapter 53...

I give up.

Why?

From the article "Jay-Sekulow-how-a-jewish-lawyer-from-brooklyn-came-to-believe-in-Jesus

"Glenn suggested I read Isaiah 53. My mind was boggled by the description of the "suffering servant" who sounded so much like Jesus. I had to be misreading the text. I realized with relief that I was reading from a "King James" Bible, and after all, that's a "Christian" translation. So the first thing I said to Glenn after I read it was "Okay, now give me a real Bible." I grabbed the Jewish text, but the description seemed just as clear. Even though this caught my attention, I wasn't too worried. It still sounded like Jesus in the "Jewish Bible," but there had to be a logical explanation.

I began to research the passage and I started to look for rabbinic interpretations. That's when I began to worry. If I read the passage once, I'm sure I read it 500 times. I looked for as many traditional Jewish interpretations as I could find. A number of them, especially the earlier ones, described the text as a messianic prophecy. Other interpretations claimed the suffering servant was Isaiah himself, or even the nation of Israel, but those explanations were an embarrassment to me. The details in the text obviously don't add up to the prophet Isaiah or the nation of Israel. Did I ask the rabbis? No, I didn't ask the rabbis. I read what the rabbis had written over the years, beginning with ancient times, but frankly, I hadn't been too impressed with anyone I'd met lately. My last impression of what to expect from the Jewish religious establishment had been in a service where, when somebody sneezed the rabbi said, "God bless you." Then he said, "What am I saying? I don't believe in God."
I kept looking for a traditional Jewish explanation that would satisfy, but found none. The only plausible explanation seemed to be Jesus. My Christian friends were suggesting other passages for me to read, such as Daniel 9. As I read, my suspicion that Jesus might really be the Messiah was confirmed."

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers...lawyer-from-brooklyn-came-to-believe-in-jesus
 
Last edited:
My last impression of what to expect from the Jewish religious establishment had been in a service where, when somebody sneezed the rabbi said, "God bless you." Then he said, "What am I saying? I don't believe in God."
DOC, i'll just leave this quote here and let you ponder why this statement works against your position.
 
Am I the only one who 'read' this in Howard Wolowitz's voice?


icon14.gif


Works perfectly for the quoted text.

As to the rest of DOC's posts - I read them all as being delivered in the style of Tim the Enchanter.


​
 
Unbelievable! What are the odds that a book trying to sell Jews on Jesus has all the right prophecies fulfilled* from the OT! It's almost too good to be true. Almost as if they used the OT as a guide or something.

I would never hire that guy as my lawyer if he can't see the obvious.

*I do not for one minute believe they are fulfilled prophecies. I was supposed to be # 40 on the list, but was overlooked....I think I was overlooked...
 
Last edited:
O Pharaoh, what pure inspiration.

Til now, I'd read those posts delivered in this voice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfYDJPOgYsg

But Tim the Enchanter is another level of interpretation.


Isis wept. The bloke in that video is a loon and a half. I'll bet he has no trouble at all believing in fulfilled prophecies.

He's got the self-righteous, I-don't-need-to-know-stuff-cos-I've-found-jeebus, atheism-is-a-religion sound just about right though.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom