The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

[Akhenaten]

They were flying thick and fast in a thread in FM but thankfully they were wrong.



ETA: I see I missed the word fulfilled.

Matthew 7:15

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.​

​

 

[welshdean]

Why did the chicken cross the road?

O/T
It was stuffed in Antony Worrall-Thompson's coat.

That's a little one for us British here.

 

[Lucian]

Do you translate the Hebrew language, and why are there so many translations of the Bible if it can be done?
At this link you can see Gateway lists 30 different translations of the Bible into the English Language. (hit the down arrow next to "page options" to see them)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1&version=NIV

Wait, the fact that there are so many translations of the Bible suggests to you that it can't be translated? Here is a list of translations of Beowulf. Way more than 30, and people didn't even start trying until 1800. That must make it super-untranslatable.

 

[pakeha]

So why did well known Jewish attorney Jay Sekulow (who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) convert to Christianity after reading and studying Isaiah chapter 53, and even seeking an explanation from a rabbi.

And this is pertinant to the discussion because.....?

Do you translate the Hebrew language, and why are there so many translations of the Bible if it can be done? ....

If?

 

[Helen]

why are there so many translations of the Bible if it can be done?

I do wonder how many there would be, if it couldn't be done.

 

[Craig B]

Why did the chicken cross the road?


DOC you seem a little vague on what's a prophecy. It has this form.

1. Prophet tells what's going to happen before it happens in enough detail to recognize the event.
2. Event happens as foretold.

I really don't think DOC sees things that way. His reasoning may be:
1. The Christian religion is True
2. Anything that induces belief in that religion, or causes people to believe in the Christian God, serves the Cause of Truth
3. Things that serve the Cause of Truth are virtuous
4. Truth is a virtue
5. Therefore things that serve the Cause of Truth are themselves True
6. Prophecies that are believed in serve the Cause of Truth (e.g. Ninevites make themselves and their domestic animals wear sackcloth to please God; Jewish attorneys become Christians etc.).
7. Such prophecies are therefore True.

That spiritual Truth, of course, transcends the mere factual truth that the prophecies are balderdash. If DOC really reasons this way, it would explain the odd arguments he uses in defence of Biblical Prophecy.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I do wonder how many there would be, if it couldn't be done.

And I don't wonder how many there would not be, if it couldn't not be done.

Do I?

 

[pakeha]

^^^
That logic spiral reminds me of Doris Lessing's The Sentimental Agents in the Volyen Empire

 

[TimCallahan]

So why did well known Jewish attorney Jay Sekulow (who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) convert to Christianity after reading and studying Isaiah chapter 53, and even seeking an explanation from a rabbi.

Joobz you have the right to your opinion, just as the author of the below website (who talks of 60 fullfilled prophecies) has the right to his.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt....hread/daa80613c57d4004/6961bccbd43f70aa?pli=1

The fact that you keep saying I have not given 1 fulfilled prophecy gives me the right to keep saying the above. In the future to be honest you should say "in my opinion" you have not given 1 fulfilled prophecy.

That attorney Jay Sekulow converted to Christianity is of no great importance -- anymore than is the fact that singer / song-writer Cat Stevens, who wrote many beautiful and inspiring songs, converted to Islam.

As to the 60 fulfilled prophecies, I visited the site and found they all involved the life of Jesus as written in the books of the New Testament. That is to say that the authors of the NT scoured the Hebrew scriptures for anything they could call a prophecy, even using the psalms, which weren't intended as prophecies. They then created fictional scenarios in which Jesus "fulfilled" these prophecies. For example, consider Micah 5:2, the famous prophecy that the messiah would be born in Bethlehem, the hometown of David. Paul mentions nothing of the birth of Jesus, nor does the gospel of Mark. The Gospel of John says that a number of Jews said Jesus couldn't be the Christ (i.e. Messiah) because the Christ was supposed to come from Bethlehem, and Jesus came from Galilee (Jn. 7:41, 42). Clearly, the author of that gospel did not include the tradition, found in Matthew and Luke, that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. As I've pointed out in earlier posts, the likelihood of the story of Jesus being born in Bethlehem was fiction is heightened by the fact that the two nativity stories contradict each other at every point.

 

[catsmate]

That's what Norman Geisler and other inerrant believers say, it is true and accurate.

Of course they're wrong, the bible is filled with errors, inaccuracies and contradictions.

The only reason it seems inaccurate to some people is that either they don't see symbolism, or for example they mistake "different" accounts for "wrong" accounts.

Or they're open minded and not seeking the aforementioned errors, inaccuracies and contradictions through the filter of belief.

For example one person writes of two angels being at the tomb and another writer says one. That is a different account but one does not contradict the other.

Yes it does.

If one would have said there were 2 angels at the tomb and the other would have said there is "only" one angel then that would have been a contradiction, but they didn't say "only" one. It's like if I say get me a pencil, "there is one in that drawer". If the person opens the drawer and there are two pencils, that doesn't mean I was wrong. There is one pencil in the drawer (but there is also two). I would have been wrong however if I would have said there is "only" one pencil in the drawer

Desperate attempt to explain away contradiction. Pathetic.

Also, as one expert reported in a quote, it is almost impossible to 100% accurately translate the exact meaning into another language. But even with a partial translation you can usually get acceptable accuracy, but not always. That is also probably the reason for some of the problems. But a bible that is not 100 clear doesn't necessarily mean it is not 100% accurate.

There are, as you've been shown, many errors, inaccuracies and contradictions even with adequate translations.

The vast majority of Christians don't put every verse under a microscope,.....

Perhaps they should, it might help them get over their beliefs and accept reality.

....they see the big picture and they accept that big picture.

You mean they ignore those errors, inaccuracies and contradictions, which would otherwise show their beliefs to be silly nonsense.

This can be compared to many skeptics who except the big Bang and abiogenesis without knowing almost anything about the details.

We I'd say most people know far more about those subjects, and the details of xianity, history as well.

 

[catsmate]

You will find explanations on the net, but that is a whole other thread.

More evasion.

What's your position, DOC?

He'll parrot whatever Geisler says.

I'm honoured. Please help yourself to a delicious slice of Aberhaten's Pizza.

http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/20000.jpg​

Congratulations on a fine achievement.

Welcome back!

Cheers mate. I haven't missed any fulfilled prophecies have I?

Your could try the Malachy thread, there's none here.

So why did well known Jewish attorney Jay Sekulow (who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) convert to Christianity after reading and studying Isaiah chapter 53, and even seeking an explanation from a rabbi.

Irrelevant nonsense. What about the people who've converted from xianity after reading Geisler's nonsense?

Joobz you have the right to your opinion, just as the author of the below website (who talks of 60 fullfilled prophecies) has the right to his.

His opinions are at variance with factual reality.

The fact that you keep saying I have not given 1 fulfilled prophecy gives me the right to keep saying the above. In the future to be honest you should say "in my opinion" you have not given 1 fulfilled prophecy.

No your failure to show one fulfilled biblical prophecy is objective reality.

 

[DOC]

Hi DOC, Here's my evidence that you have yet to present a convincing argument in support of a single biblical prophecy.

DOC has successfully demonstrated a fulfilled biblical prophecy: 1
DOC

DOC has failed to demonstrate that biblical prophecies have been fullfilled. 41
Joobz
Foster Zygote
jond
abaddon
mashuna
zooterkin
Mojo
Lucian
Amazer
Helen
Filippo Lippi
Hokulele
RoboTimbo
FastEddieB
joseph8th
kmortis
x
RobDegraves
Elizabeth I
Lukraak_Sisser
Mudcat
ddt
Mister Agenda* Whose opinion DOC labeled as Unbiased
catsmate
tsig
Leumas
Brainache
Welshdean
Rincewind
Multivac
pakeha
dafydd
TimCallahan
Wildy
Lrrr
Cantab
Sezme
AdMan
Alice Shortcake
Sun Countess
Agatha

Doc has successfullly demonstrated that the OT is largely made up of incomprehensible gibberish: 14
Lucian
Helen
kmortis
ddt
Leumas
Mudcat
Welshdean
Rincewind
Multivac
Brainache
pakeha
Cantab
Sezme
Nay_sayer

Do you believe any of these[prophecies in a google list] came true?
No:21
zooterkin
joobz
kerikiwi
pakeha
Mojo
dafydd
Lucian
ddt
welshdean
Agatha
Elizabeth I
Craig B
catsmate1
Helen
carlitos
abaddon
Robotimbo
Mudcat
Welshdean
Lrrr
Rincewind

So you believe these[prophecies in a google list] came true?
Yes:0

Even Jesus couldn't convince everyone, that's why they nailed him to the cross. But something happened shortly afterward which is why the biggest church in the world is located in the heart of the Roman Empire (Rome) and why we are discussing all of this 2000 years later. All of this should have ended with a bunch of scared apostles scattering never to be heard of again, but something happened, and it didn't end that way.

 

[Craig B]

Even Jesus couldn't convince everyone, that's why they nailed him to the cross. But something happened 3 days later which is why we are discussing all of this 2000 years later.

Alas, the three day something is the thing that convinces me least of all. What happened later was that delusions and hallucinations became the starting point for a series of incoherent tales about dead people emerging from their tombs. Not merely Jesus, but lots of others too, according to Matthew. And the discrepancies and contradictions in the 3 gospel accounts of what Jesus did after he woke up (the earliest gospel Mark, in its authentic versions, tells us nothing) indicate that we're dealing with myths founded on delusions.

 

[pakeha]

Even Jesus couldn't convince everyone, that's why they nailed him to the cross. ...

I thought you claimed Jesus died in fulfilment of bibical prophecy?
Now it's because he wasn't a convincing preacher?

And just out of curiosity, do you think the subsequent belief systems show that an archangel dictated the Koran to Mohammed ?

 

[Akhenaten]

Even Jesus couldn't convince everyone, that's why they nailed him to the cross.

That's not even in accord with your own fairytale, let alone being supported by any kind of genuine historical record.

In any case, the fate of the Jesus character, whether mythical or otherwise, has nothing to do with your own lack of credibility - a lack brought about by years of spouting logical fallacies, other people's questionable apologetics, clueless speculation and outright fabrications.

But something happened shortly afterward which is why the biggest church in the world is located in the heart of the Roman Empire (Rome) and why we are discussing all of this 2000 years later.

Yes, what happened was that Constantine became Emperor and one day his mum said "Hey, you know what would be a good idea?"

All of this should have ended with a bunch of scared apostles scattering never to be heard of again, but something happened, and it didn't end that way.

The story of Harry Potter should have ended with the vanquishing of Voldemort and a bunch of scared Death Eaters scattering never to be heard of again but Joanne Rowling made up heaps more stories and it didn't end that way.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

All of this should have ended with a bunch of scared apostles scattering never to be heard of again, but something happened, and it didn't end that way.

Interesting fact, to be sure, informing us about the origins of religious movements, but not so much on the topic at hand.

More modern branches of Christianity give insight into how new movements spin off.

Example #1 (From Wikipedia):

The Seventh-day Adventist Church is the largest of several Adventist groups which arose from the Millerite movement of the 1840s in upstate New York, a phase of the Second Great Awakening. Miller predicted on the basis of Daniel 8:14–16 and the "day-year principle" that Jesus Christ would return to Earth between the Spring of 1843 and the Spring of 1844. In the summer of 1844, Millerite Adventists came to believe that Jesus would return on October 22, 1844, understood to be the Biblical Day of Atonement for that year. When this did not happen, most of his followers disbanded and returned to their original churches.

Example #2 (also fron Wikipedia):

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints traces its current dispensation beginnings to Joseph Smith, Jr. on April 6, 1830 in Western New York. Initial converts were drawn to the church in part because of the newly published Book of Mormon, a self-described chronicle of indigenous American prophets that Smith said he had translated from golden plates.

In both of these cases, "something happened" (your words). Does that fact lead you to give credence to either account? As bizarre as Mormonism appears to many here, it remains a rapidly growing religion - I believe THE most rapidly growing in the US.

All of this is ripe ground for psychologists studying the origins of human belief systems. But really evidence of nothing beyond that - certainly not relevant in a discussion on the validity of prophesy.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Even Jesus couldn't convince everyone, that's why they nailed him to the cross. But something happened shortly afterward which is why the biggest church in the world is located in the heart of the Roman Empire (Rome) and why we are discussing all of this 2000 years later. All of this should have ended with a bunch of scared apostles scattering never to be heard of again, but something happened, and it didn't end that way.

Oh please, that isnt an argument at all.

There are millions of people nowadays that follow the 'teachings' of a second rate sci-fi writer, who was *known* to be a documented liar. Gullible people are from every age, and since all most people 2000 years ago knew is what people told them its no great leap of the imagination that the early christian cults managed to get followers.
Only after the formation of the christian state religion followed by the active purges of anyone NOT being a christian did the religion become dominant in that part of the world.
This coercion has only ended in parts of the western world in the last 40-50 years or so.
Most christians nowadays are christian because their parents are and told them 'this is what you should believe', not the evident truth.

 

[joobz]

Even Jesus couldn't convince everyone,

Convincing rational people doesn't require magical skills or godly intervention. It only needs strong arguments built upon verifiable evidence.

You have made no strong arguments and have presented no extra biblical evidence to make your case. This is why you have failed to convince anyone.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Your "inconsistences" are nothing more than individual author's focus on different aspects of the material being related. Read "in toto", the Gospels, for example, relate a highly harmonized account of the ministry of Jesus.

Here's a good site debunking your "inconsistencies":

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/morgand03.html (see also the many links contained therein)

Who was the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary? When was Jesus crucified, before or after the Passover meal?

 

[Foster Zygote]

Even Jesus couldn't convince everyone, that's why they nailed him to the cross. But something happened shortly afterward which is why the biggest church in the world is located in the heart of the Roman Empire (Rome) and why we are discussing all of this 2000 years later. All of this should have ended with a bunch of scared apostles scattering never to be heard of again, but something happened, and it didn't end that way.

So the fact that a religion has roots in the distant past means that it must be true? Islam is around 1500 years old and people are still talking about it. Buddhism is 2500 years old and people are still talking about it.

You're going to have to do better than that.