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Merged Roosevelt's Rotten Record:Communism, Treachery, Betrayal

Tomtomkent said:
Really? The Veona manuscripts suggest that hollywood was a hotbed of Soviet spies, and that numerous harmless socialist (not communist) groups posed an immediate threat to the American way of life?

I think it is blatantly obvious that are indulging in the same kind of paranoia and confirmation bias that the MaCarthy witch trials indulged in. Taking known examples of espionage and infiltration to validateimagined cases with far wider scope. You are also ignoring the specific areas that maCarthy et al believed bred unamerican activites to claim that the conspiracy he described was the conspiracy you describe.

And of course you ignore any and all data that conflicts with your views.

You may need a decoder ring, but to me it clearly seems as though you are already a MaCarthy apollogist latching onto a conspiracy theory to justify the witch trials, or you are validating your CT with Macarthy.

Of course, if you wanted to prove Macarthy was right it's simple: if the spies listed in the Veona text constitute a significant proportion of those blacklisted or imprisoned by the Unamerican Activity board Macarthy was on the money. If they constitute a small percentage he was exagerating. If they were not even identified or investigated we know MaCarthy was looking in the wrong place for the wrong kind of conspiracy.

This is before we even look at the fine details of indipendant validation of the names, the extent and remit of their activities and so forth. If the names were only those of sources gathering information then the limits of influence your CT assumes them to have is called into question. How and when they were recruited needs to be examined. If they were spies because of, inspite of, or irregardless of FDR is essential knowledge before the accuracy of your assertion is stated.

But you have made no objective case for this. You assume the information is suggestive of your favoured narrative because you wish it to be so. For those of us who remain objective it does not suggest what you claim.
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What in the world are you babbling about? McCarthy had NOTHING to do with the investigations of the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

Good grief.
 
Tomtomkent said:
Really? The Veona manuscripts suggest that hollywood was a hotbed of Soviet spies, and that numerous harmless socialist (not communist) groups posed an immediate threat to the American way of life?
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Amusingly, some isolationists in Congress got all hot and bothered about Hollywood before we entered WWII. Their target? Nazis? No. Commies? No. They were convinced that the British were running Hollywood and using the movies to sway public opinion. The hearing transcripts are available if anybody wants a chuckle. :)
 
Ok, so let's give SHC the benefit of the doubt. By McCarthy being "on the money" I thought you meant the wider accusations and suggestions made by McCarthy, not a specific.

This however means my suggested methodology needs to be corrected, it does not mean we can ignore the holes in the data. We still need to establish if the infiltration was to the extent and purpose McCarthy suggested, and if that validates your claims it was "because" of FDR. We need to know if the list of people McCarthy had was the same as those in the document, if their roles were as he described, active soviet agents, and if they exuded influence on behalf of the soviets or simply reported information back. Then we need to establish if this was inspite of, because of, or irregardless of FDR.

Had the wider suggestion of infiltration been part of McCarthys view being discussed we could stilluse the huac as a good benchmark. Compare who was on the list to who was arrested. But now we look at the specific claim SHC just has to show those who are in the decodes were on the "McCarthy list" of statedepartment employees. Or maybe in his army board investigations.

Proving this was because of FDR will remain more abstraxt...
 
Gawdzilla said:
Amusingly, some isolationists in Congress got all hot and bothered about Hollywood before we entered WWII. Their target? Nazis? No. Commies? No. They were convinced that the British were running Hollywood and using the movies to sway public opinion. The hearing transcripts are available if anybody wants a chuckle. :)
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British...Jews...Communists...Popular Mechanics...all part of the same cabal.
 
Gawdzilla said:
Amusingly, some isolationists in Congress got all hot and bothered about Hollywood before we entered WWII. Their target? Nazis? No. Commies? No. They were convinced that the British were running Hollywood and using the movies to sway public opinion. The hearing transcripts are available if anybody wants a chuckle. :)
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As a side note here, there was an American movement to join the war that had little to do with FDR. The big propaganda hit they produced, the song White Cliffs of Dover, which is derived largley from "over the rainbow" became an even bigger hit when exported to the UK. So much so that few brits know it was written by an American, for Americans to idylise the brit war effort. The first lyric, "there will be blue birds over the white cliffs of Dover" is utterly wrong. Bluebirds are not native to Kent, or the UK.
 
Tomtomkent said:
As a side note here, there was an American movement to join the war that had little to do with FDR. The big propaganda hit they produced, the song White Cliffs of Dover, which is derived largley from "over the rainbow" became an even bigger hit when exported to the UK. So much so that few brits know it was written by an American, for Americans to idylise the brit war effort. The first lyric, "there will be blue birds over the white cliffs of Dover" is utterly wrong. Bluebirds are not native to Kent, or the UK.
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Try "A Yank in the RAF" for a less than subtle movie. :D
 
Gawdzilla said:
Try "A Yank in the RAF" for a less than subtle movie. :D
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Unfortunately my countrymen were less favourable to returning the propoganda favour, and took deep personal offence to "Operation Burma" which made all American heroes responsible for battles that took place before Pearl Harbour (see also U571) and the film (Operation Burma, not U571) was banned for decades (though the latter film was bad enough to deserve it).


Damn it. This is all because FDR fought for the Polio vaccine and saved America from the Fresh Water Curse isn't it? How dare the cad and bounder increase the standard of living for the majority of working class Americans. The fiend!
 
Tomtomkent said:
Unfortunately my countrymen were less favourable to returning the propoganda favour, and took deep personal offence to "Operation Burma" which made all American heroes responsible for battles that took place before Pearl Harbour (see also U571) and the film (Operation Burma, not U571) was banned for decades (though the latter film was bad enough to deserve it).
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John Wayne tried to make up for some of that in "The Longest Day".
Damn it. This is all because FDR fought for the Polio vaccine and saved America from the Fresh Water Curse isn't it? How dare the cad and bounder increase the standard of living for the majority of working class Americans. The fiend!
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As well as letting the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor.
 
Look, most war movies, especially those actually produced during the war years have about as much realistic portrayal of the causes, etc of conflict as "Captain America" has with respect to WWII Spec Ops in NW Europe.
 
Border Reiver said:
Look, most war movies, especially those actually produced during the war years have about as much realistic portrayal of the causes, etc of conflict as "Captain America" has with respect to WWII Spec Ops in NW Europe.
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You mean "Gung Ho!" wasn't a documentary? :eek:

(A bit embarrassing during the Cold War as Randolph Scott expresses admiration for the Chinese Communists, IIRC.)
 
Gawdzilla said:
Not true. They mobbed him wherever he went. See Randy Robert's John Wayne, American, probably the best bio of the Duke written. He constantly asked to be allowed to join up.
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He perhaps played on the image a little too much. The great advocate of the armed forces who avoided active service to furhter his career. Though he seemed to be popular with many servicemen I can see why the dislike was not an entirely unheard of point of view amongst the more disenfranchised service men. It is not an either/or point of view, bith were popular, but one was considerably more popular.

Or such is my understanding.
 
Gawdzilla said:
Amusingly, some isolationists in Congress got all hot and bothered about Hollywood before we entered WWII. Their target? Nazis? No. Commies? No. They were convinced that the British were running Hollywood and using the movies to sway public opinion. The hearing transcripts are available if anybody wants a chuckle. :)
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Tomtomkent said:
What? It was by Gerry Davis! He created the Cybermen! And had president Bartlet in his pre-politics Naval career.... :rolleyes:

And is as realistic as the idea FDR "let" Pearl Harbour happen.
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Well I've learned two new things today. Thanks.
 
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