Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Bob001]

Subject for discussion: Whatever his motives might have been, we know as a matter of fact that GZ shot and killed an unarmed stranger in a public place. If somebody else encounters GZ on the street, under Florida law would they be entitled to kill him out of a reasonable fear that he was a known threat to their lives? ("Officer, when I saw him I was so scared that I couldn't think of anything but saving myself....")

 

[crimresearch]

Thats not what I said

"who made the dumb choice does not always have a legal right to defend themselves"

as in the they provoked the fight and then ended up killing the other.

I made no blanket statements, it could go either way.

I would agree at this point, that the outcome could go either way.

The process, not so much. At least not without the obvious consequences.

 

[crimresearch]

Subject for discussion: Whatever his motives might have been, we know as a matter of fact that GZ shot and killed an unarmed stranger in a public place. If somebody else encounters GZ on the street, under Florida law would they be entitled to kill him out of a reasonable fear that he was a known threat to their lives? ("Officer, when I saw him I was so scared that I couldn't think of anything but saving myself....")

Only if they had just collected the JREF $1 million for reading minds.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The SIM can tell you even more than just what you see from the phone. For instance, it is often possible to recover previously deleted text messages from the SIM. But that's an issue for another case.

You assume TM had a GSM iphone (i.e. not sprint or verizon)
But at any rate, the iphone doesn't store SMS messages on the SIM.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

It's really amazing the sort of athleticism that some folks want to ascribe to Martin, considering that he was just some teenager walking down the street. He can dash across footballs fields in seconds,

No, some of us are claiming he could walk 100 yards in 2 or 3 minutes and be home.

You have yet to tell us what you think he was actually doing all that time when GZ was on the 911 call..[/QUOTE]

he has the fighting prowess of an MMA champ, he can sink into the smallest shadow and lie in wait silently. It's a wonder Zimmerman survived at all - I'd assume that Martin would have thrown a house at him.

And by the way, yes, it's actually pretty easy to bite someone in a street fight, if they actively stick their hand on your mouth.

So you think TM was actively trying to stick his hands in GZ mouth ? Interesting.

As I've said, we don't have Zimmerman's actual account. We have a bunch of second-had reports, featuring all sorts of improbable behavior, ridiculous dialogue, and assertions that are contradicted by the evidence. It's best to give Zimmerman his day in court, and not rush off from the nonsense that his alleged supporters are spouting.

How fair-minded of you.

 

[crimresearch]

I'm honestly not sure. I hope that is wrong but many people seem to think that under Florida law SYG makes it likely. I don't think there should be laws that give a pass for negligence.

Nonetheless, Freddy's comments in this thread have accurately described the legal system.

 

[curi0us]

No, who started the physical altercation mattering depends very much on perceived threats and perceived danger.

It could be that the jury will be instructed to look at only who threw the first punch.
It could be that the jury will be instructed to look at perceived threatening behavior and danger.

It is sometimes considered to view starting a fight as a legal response to situation of perceived threat.

Phnatons Wolfs statements were rather blanket assertions and had no subtlety to express the complexity of the situation.

<snip>

You are arguing with me about Lionking's straw-man version of what Phantom Wolf said even after I said it was a straw-man!

Establishing wether or not it was a straw-man would have been a proper first step.

However we're not talkin a single punch, we're talking a beating that proceeded for near enough to a minute or longer.

^PhantomWolf was always taking into consideration the extended beating and yells for help. You and LK are just irresponsibly twisting PW's words out of context.

You won't be able to find out what really happened here. The trial will have more data points and be a likely place.

I know how to research a topic, trust that I am not using forum comments as a primary source. Consider your response to me when I said that the screwdriver found in TM's backpack (with the large amount of women's jewelry of unknown origin) was a suspected "burglary tool". You corrected me and said the school's issue was that of it being a "potential weapon" . While in actuality I was using a verbatim quote from the schools police investigator backed up by a little extra legal research. Did you ever actually have any source at all for your statement about the screwdriver really being considered a "potential weapon" in this instance?

More data points are always good but it isn't always a good idea to wait till they are all known before evaluating evidence. The Duke Lacrosse case is a simple example of that.

 

[curi0us]

It's really amazing the sort of athleticism that some folks want to ascribe to Martin, considering that he was just some teenager walking down the street. He can dash across footballs fields in seconds, he has the fighting prowess of an MMA champ, he can sink into the smallest shadow and lie in wait silently. It's a wonder Zimmerman survived at all - I'd assume that Martin would have thrown a house at him.

That's a nice collection of straw men.

And by the way, yes, it's actually pretty easy to bite someone in a street fight, if they actively stick their hand on your mouth.

I never said bites don't happen in street fights, my reply was prompted by your faulty assumption that the mortician would have found bite marks on TM's hand if a hand over the mouth technique was used during the fight. I can understand why it seems to make intuitive sense that someone would bite a hand over there mouth in a fight but it's basically impossible to do as long as the hand is really over the mouth.

Just cover your mouth with your palm and pinch your nostrils shut with your thumb and the edge of your index finger. The lower base of your palm should be close to resting on your chin with your nose naturally being in the space between your thumb and index finger. The thumb and finger squeezing the nose shut doesn't just block off the airway, it's also a grip for control that keeps the hand in position. As long as the hand is in that position there is no way to successfully bite it.

As I've said, we don't have Zimmerman's actual account. We have a bunch of second-had reports, featuring all sorts of improbable behavior, ridiculous dialogue, and assertions that are contradicted by the evidence. It's best to give Zimmerman his day in court, and not rush off from the nonsense that his alleged supporters are spouting.

I do absolutely agree that Zimmerman's specific account is key to all of this and we don't have it yet. Where we diverge is that from what I have heard so far it is actually seems possible to me that he has been telling the truth from start to finish.

 

[lionking]

What's your real issue here Lionking?

Phantom Wolf's last post was seven pages ago and your argument that who started the fight is "irrelevant" is blatantly wrong. Both the innocent and guilty positions agree who started the fight is relevant.

Phantom Wolf has also not taken the position you described as being that "it all depends on who started the fight." That's a blatant strawman.

This is one of many similar comments by Phantom Wolf:

When the case is about self defence it will certainly hang on who started the the altercation.

 

[Dancing David]

You are arguing with me about Lionking's straw-man version of what Phantom Wolf said even after I said it was a straw-man!

Establishing wether or not it was a straw-man would have been a proper first step.


^PhantomWolf was always taking into consideration the extended beating and yells for help. You and LK are just irresponsibly twisting PW's words out of context.

Nope , I disagree with the blanket absolutes handed out by PW.

I know how to research a topic, trust that I am not using forum comments as a primary source. Consider your response to me when I said that the screwdriver found in TM's backpack (with the large amount of women's jewelry of unknown origin) was a suspected "burglary tool". You corrected me and said the school's issue was that of it being a "potential weapon" . While in actuality I was using a verbatim quote from the schools police investigator backed up by a little extra legal research. Did you ever actually have any source at all for your statement about the screwdriver really being considered a "potential weapon" in this instance?

Do I actually care? In my school district it can and will get you expelled if you are in high school, a ten day suspension in middle school and a long talk in grade school.
Just possession, not brandishing or threatening.

Maybe you should just read my posts as a little more neutral. I doubt I corrected you at all, if that was your perception then I apologize.

More data points are always good but it isn't always a good idea to wait till they are all known before evaluating evidence. The Duke Lacrosse case is a simple example of that.

I think you should read my post more carefully. You can bee expelled in my school district for carrying a screwdriver.

And I disagree with most of what Phantom Wolf said, so if you want to be their proxy, go ahead.

The Duke lacrosse case is what it is, and has nothing to with the fact that you won't find out what really happened here.

 

[curi0us]

First you say:

I simply don't understand how who started the altercation has any relevance at all (Phantom Wolf has said this often as well). Are people saying that if Martin took a swing at Zimmerman, Z was justified in killing him? Crap. Not that simple at all.

Then why I say you are wrong about PhantomWolf's position you say:

This is one of many similar comments by Phantom Wolf:

When the case is about self defence it will certainly hang on who started the the altercation.

The actual full quote you picked that from completely contradicts what you described as PhantomWolf's position. Phantomwolf's complete post that you quoted from:

When the case is about self defence it will certainly hang on who started the the altercation. If it was GZ, then his defence is gone. If it was TM to he has to face the second hurdle of whether he had a genuine belief his life was in danger. It's not going to matter whether or not TM actually commited a crime before GZ started to follow him, that's totally irrelevant to what happened after that.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8196343&postcount=6482

Phantomwolf was actually saying the EXACT same thing as you in that even if Martin started the altercation it was still "not that simple at all" because Zimmerman "has to face the second hurdle of wether he has a genuine belief his life was in danger." Keep in mind, this is from the statement that you picked to make your argument against PhantomWolf.

First you misrepresented Phantomwolf's position and then you posted a single sentence quote of Phantomwolf where if you had just included the following two sentences it would have undeniably completely refuted your original argument against Phantomwolf. That looks like intentional dishonesty to me.

 

[Dancing David]

Now it looks like the Amanda Knox thread!

 

[Moss]

*gets flameretardant underwear*



One thing I'm curious about but I don't think we can answer it from what we have:
It seems rather odd to me that someone would attack someone else while on the phone. Do we have a clue when exactly the call between TM and his girlfriend ended?
I admit I have tried to find it but did not look too hard.

 

[sgtbaker]

*gets flameretardant underwear*



One thing I'm curious about but I don't think we can answer it from what we have:
It seems rather odd to me that someone would attack someone else while on the phone. Do we have a clue when exactly the call between TM and his girlfriend ended?
I admit I have tried to find it but did not look too hard.

It's been mentioned a few times in this thread. Take a quick gander, it's only 169 pages to sift through.

If I recall correctly, but do yourself a favor and don't quote this in an argument; it ended at about 7:16. I don't know if that's exact or not. Some cellphone bills round it up to the next minute.

 

[Kestrel]

*gets flameretardant underwear*



One thing I'm curious about but I don't think we can answer it from what we have:
It seems rather odd to me that someone would attack someone else while on the phone. Do we have a clue when exactly the call between TM and his girlfriend ended?
I admit I have tried to find it but did not look too hard.

The information we have so far is that the call started at 7:12 pm and lasted 4 minutes. T-Mobile's billing system rounded time and duration to the minute, but we don't know how they did the rounding. The cell phone system itself should have times to the nearest second but those have not been released.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

It's been mentioned a few times in this thread. Take a quick gander, it's only 169 pages to sift through.

If I recall correctly, but do yourself a favor and don't quote this in an argument; it ended at about 7:16. I don't know if that's exact or not. Some cellphone bills round it up to the next minute.

You just go ahead and listen to sgtbaker

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSBRE82I17520120320

The call started at 7:12 and lasted 4 minutes. Not sure how it was rounded.

First witness call was 7:16:11

 

[Beerina]

Now it looks like the Amanda Knox thread!

I made that quip 4 days AKA 100 pages ago.

 

[Moss]

Thanks, been trying to get my head around layouting complex webforms and digitally signing waste, seems like that impeded my google-fu. ^^'

 

[Dancing David]

I made that quip 4 days AKA 100 pages ago.

I am agreeing, regards some people who read other people minds, defend other posters who could defend themselves.

But now that rationality has returned (to adegree) less like Amanada Knox thread.

 

[Moss]

I am agreeing, regards some people who read other people minds, defend other posters who could defend themselves.

But now that rationality has returned (to adegree) less like Amanada Knox thread.

Now I feel excluded.

Rounding the time down seems rather unlikely, so I suppose there might be up to 59 seconds between the end of the call and altercation. That really doesn't say much then.