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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Clayton Moore said:
http://en.auschwitz.org/z/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8

[qimg]http://video.auschwitz.org/jacobs/grafika/Birkenau_mapa.jpg[/qimg]

Not very big is it?
Click to expand...
It was only built to house 10k prisoners. Any idea how many were actually shipped there?
Clayton Moore said:
Click the numbers.
Click to expand...
... and discover that CM doesn't understand live links in a picture, since none of his are.
Clayton Moore said:
Legend:

1. The "Gate of death" (part I) 10. Crematorium II (inside) 19. The sauna (part III)
2. The "Gate of death" (part II) 11. Crematorium II (general view) 20. Bunker I — "the little red house"
3. The unloading ramp 12. The last moments 21. Bunker II — "the litthe white house”
4. Wooden living hut 13. Little wood (crematoria) 22. Burning pits
5. Brick living hut 14. Pond with ashes 23. So-called Mexico
6. Latrine at Men's Camp 15.Crematorium V 24. Cementery of Russian POWs
7. Latrine at Women's Camp 16. "Kanada" and the sauna 25. Altejudenrampe — the old unloading ramp
8. The penal company 17. The sauna (part I)
9. Crematorium II (model) 18. The sauna (part II)
Click to expand...
Nor do any of these links work.

Funny how little someone who claims to know how to model the Twin Towers collapse < snert > missed that.

Was there a point to this exercise other than revealing another aspect of your ignorance?
 
Clayton Moore said:
Not very big is it?
Click to expand...

Tsk, tsk, tsk, Clayton. You should have continued your struggle with comic books (when you were 12 no less!).

The first sentence on Wikipedia about Auschwitz shows how ignorant you are concerning basic history.
Auschwitz was a network of concentration and extermination camps

Please read a basic history book about Germany's activities during the war before posting again.
 
mushy said:
Rudolf Hess who was a commander at the camp gave that figure at the nuremberg trials.
Click to expand...

Whoops.....You failed to read the court transcripts and missed the court's dismissal of Hoess's estimate. Are you being naughty?

DR. KAUTFFMANN: Is it true that you, yourself, have made no exact notes regarding the figures of the number of those victims because you were forbidden to make them?

HOESS: Yes, that is correct.

DR. KAUFFMANN: Is it furthermore correct that exclusively one man by the name of Eichmann had notes about this, the man who had the task of organizing and assembling these people?

HOESS: Yes.
 
Bluespaceoddity said:
It is still the same thread. The topic is still Holocaust denial. The thread isn't in the history section. You've repeatedly hinted at some sort of timeline on which a hoax unfolded / was created. In spite of repeated requests you have not elaborated. Not in the first part of this thread and not in this siphoned off continuation. For some reason the topic is picking up replies again but that's not because Holocaust deniers have finally decided to present their case.

Why not take the opportunity to explain why it is important that the publications you will not read are from before 1950? Why not take the opportunity provided you here? As Thunder put it about a year ago; "Clayton- please provide us with the evidence and the timeline of the Holocaust conspiracy plan, plot, etc etc. Who was involved. Who fixed the census data. Who fudged the records. (?)" [Relatively random result from a search for the keyword "Timeline" in the first part of this thread.]

You tried "Read the Thread" as a reply but that isn't an acceptable answer. As Craig4 put it back then; "We have, hence the question." It is also quite odd that you would resist the request. What were you hoping to achieve with not explaining yourself?

Why waste another year of everyone's time by dodging? Why dodge the opportunity to lay out your own case? Why dodge the opportunity to present recorded events in the context you see for them? It doesn't make sense. Unlike the material provided in longs lists of books, your version of events can't be found anywhere else. Why not take the time to present your version of history in a logical chronological narrative? Rewrite those books. Force the moderators to move the thread to the history section. Can you?
Click to expand...

Many of the inconvenient testimonies have vanished in 60 years. The under oath tales that killed defendants at the various war trials were lies and fabrications. Recently, even though he was found not guilty of war crimes byIsrael, 91 year old John Demjanjukl died in custody after being found guilty of war crimes by Germany. Which proves Holocaust zealots will do anything to keep the Holocaust in the public eye.
 
mushy said:
I never said one at a time did i? I just game how much per second it worked out based on the figures i had read.
Click to expand...
Matter of fact, you did: "one person killed every 31 seconds", remember?

It only works out to every 31 seconds if one assumes one body at a time.
 
TSR said:
It was only built to house 10k prisoners. Any idea how many were actually shipped there?

... and discover that CM doesn't understand live links in a picture, since none of his are.

Nor do any of these links work.

Funny how little someone who claims to know how to model the Twin Towers collapse < snert > missed that.

Was there a point to this exercise other than revealing another aspect of your ignorance?
Click to expand...

http://en.auschwitz.org/z/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8


The above link was supplied.
 
mushy said:
I accept the figure was wrong, he asked me where i came up with the figure, i told him.
Edited by jhunter1163: 
Moderated content removed.
Click to expand...
mushy said:
I don't know or really care about it, it was just some figures i came across and decided to ask.
Edited by jhunter1163: 
Moderated content removed.
Click to expand...


Who has the attitude problem again, "mushy"?

If people are a bit curt and tetchy here it may be that some here have been through this dance many many times before and it always ends the same way. You tipped your faux-"Just Asking Questions" hand a lot faster than most posters (who almost invariably turn out to be anti-semitic holocaust deniers). Less than a page in and already you are turning offensive. Very disappointing, but then that's the problem with trolls these days. Simply no patience anymore for the long con.


ETA: And now he's suspended. He's probably learned what many of us have at one time or another; don't post while drunk.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Clayton Moore said:
...
Click to expand...
It is still the same thread. The topic is still Holocaust denial. The thread isn't in the history section. You've repeatedly hinted at some sort of timeline on which a hoax unfolded / was created. In spite of repeated requests you have not elaborated. Not in the first part of this thread and not in this siphoned off continuation. For some reason the topic is picking up replies again but that's not because Holocaust deniers have finally decided to present their case.

Why not take the opportunity to explain why it is important that the publications you will not read are from before 1950? Why not take the opportunity provided you here? As Thunder put it about a year ago; "Clayton- please provide us with the evidence and the timeline of the Holocaust conspiracy plan, plot, etc etc. Who was involved. Who fixed the census data. Who fudged the records. (?)" [Relatively random result from a search for the keyword "Timeline" in the first part of this thread.]

You tried "Read the Thread" as a reply but that isn't an acceptable answer. As Craig4 put it back then; "We have, hence the question." It is also quite odd that you would resist the request. What were you hoping to achieve with not explaining yourself?

Why waste another year of everyone's time by dodging? Why dodge the opportunity to lay out your own case? Why dodge the opportunity to present recorded events in the context you see for them? It doesn't make sense. Unlike the material provided in longs lists of books, your version of events can't be found anywhere else. Why not take the time to present your version of history in a logical chronological narrative? Rewrite those books. Force the moderators to move the thread to the history section. Can you?
 
Clayton Moore said:
Many of the inconvenient testimonies have vanished in 60 years.
Click to expand...
And a half dozen examples of these are ... ?
Clayton Moore said:
The under oath tales that killed defendants at the various war trials were lies and fabrications.
Click to expand...
As proven by ... ?
Clayton Moore said:
Recently, even though he was found not guilty of war crimes at Treblinka by Israel, 91 year old John Demjanjukl died in custody after being found guilty of war crimes at Sobibor by Germany. Which proves Holocaust zealots will do anything to keep the Holocaust in the public eye.
Click to expand...
FTFY

And no, it proves that the Jews are not the all powerful boogeymen you claim, since Israel let him go. It also proves that the German justice system works, since it was proven that he was a guard at Sobibor, Majdanek and Flossenbürg.

Which incidentally means he lied to get into the US to begin with, but that lie is okay, since he is not a Jooo.

Speaking of lies:

When did the Jews exit the trains, and what evidence do you offer in support of this physical and logistical impossibility?

Which specific "rules of social and legal fairness" did Anne Frank "throw out the window"? Korczak and his kids? Given that most of these were minors, throwing out legal rules would be a logistical and judicial impossibility.

Your lie that "even historians ... had to admit that no ... mass exterminations took place in the German camps on German soil". The existence of Sachsenhausen alone shows this to be an impossibility (except in the case of a particularly inept historian such a Faurisson).

Are we all just supposed to ignore that whole Vernichtung durch Arbeit thing just because you haven't been spoon fed a response? It's a physical and logistical impossibility that your almost complete ignorance of the actual history which you are so rabid to deny could be made up for by such spoon feeding.

How many people died at Sachsenhausen, and what rules did each of them throw out? See above re: impossibilities

Has someone spoon fed you a single lie on the THHP website? Because that's a physical and logistical impossibility given that there are none.

How do you know that "most, way above 90%, died of disease." It's a physical and logistical impossibility that you could know this for certain, since many victims were never registered and so their COD was not recorded. But even your cherised Soviet Death Books (funny how evidence from that quarter is acceptable, if it seems to help justify your hate) contradict this.

And what about (speaking of cash cows) Faurisson's lie that "Elie Wiesel ... is generally accepted as a witness to ... the legendary Nazi extermination gas chambers...." when Buna, the camp he was in, has never been said to have gas chambers? Isn't that sort of ... how did that go again? A physical and logistical impossibility?

Run, CM -- Run.
 
Thread closed as part of a clean-up. It may be reopened or merged into an appropriate thread during the cleanup.
Posted By: Darat
 
SnakeTongue said:
Let me guess?

I have to buy this books?

Not one single source which I can look freely into the statistics?
Click to expand...

Oh, there are masses of online sources where you can look freely into statistics, details, documents, testimonies and more.

Now please READ this post before fisking it. Read ALL of it to the end. And the next post.

I would suggest you start with Yad Vashem and digest every single article/document/source that is available on their site. The Holocaust Resource Center has numerous documents, articles and other items
http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/holocaust/resource_center/index.asp

The index for Righteous among Nations, for example, includes the following

Total Sources (by media type):
Artifact Collection 28
Diaries and Letters 1
Documents 1
Lexicon Entries 64
Photographs 45
Research 8
Testimonies 7
Works of Art 1

Total Sources 155

This category will provide masses of information about how some few Jews survived, how they avoided detection, and by implication how others were caught.

Another category is 'the Local Population', divided into several sections. One section deals with 'perpetrators and murderers'

The same information is available on Wikipedia in condensed form; careful surfing and following of links will arrive at the same results.

And there are also independent websites discussing the same issues. One archived site is called 'Saving Jews' and deals with Poland.

The thing you'll have to get over pretty rapidly is looking for a single source since you are dealing with events that took place on the territory of 25 contemporary nation-states. It has been obvious since the 1940s that events unfolded differently depending on the territory in question, because of differences in culture, politics, economics, social structure, wartime conditions, and the degree of ideological fervour of the occupying Nazis or their local pro-Nazi collaborators, as well as the background level of antisemitism.

I gave some examples from France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Poland up-thread. Obviously, each of these countries has its own encyclopedia entries, its own websites dedicated to the issues involved, and its own scholarly literature.

For example, the basic facts about the Holocaust in the Netherlands are summarised perfectly accurately in Wikipedia's entry on the history of the Jews in the Netherlands. The entry gives some perfectly decent online web pages as sources, which in turn refer to other sources, which in turn refer to primary sources. That's just how the world is with any subject in history.

Or you can continue googling, and will come across other sites, with the caveat that a lot of stuff isn't going to show up in an English keyword search, because duh, the sources will be in Dutch.

If you ask nicely, our Dutch members here - there are several participating in the discussion -will direct you to various sites, sources and materials about the Holocaust in the Netherlands. The Dutch research institute NIOD has scanned large amounts of documents from Westerbork which document the deportations; there are demographic studies, studies showing variations in the regions, and one can also read the standard work on the Holocaust in the Netherlands by Jacob Presser online, in Dutch.

Alternatively, you can simply order Bob Moore, Victims and Survivors, and get a really good summary of all the issues.

Or, you can order Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of European Jews, in any edition other than the student edition (which is overly condensed), and read his chapter on the Netherlands, and also read the chapters on other countries, since Hilberg gives very good summaries of the bureaucratic procedures involved.

By this stage, you should have realised that the Nuremberg records, in addition to the Eichmann trial records, are online, and since these contain a very great many answers to your questions, they can be read, too.

You really have two choices. One, you can reconstruct the massive research effort of others yourself with free materials, or two, you can order a few books from a library or bookshop, and benefit from the fact that you are asking questions which have pretty much already been answered. The freebie route will take a little longer.

Either route requires careful study and the use of multiple sources.
 
Nick Terry said:
Oh, there are masses of online sources where you can look freely into statistics, details, documents, testimonies and more.

Now please READ this post before fisking it. Read ALL of it to the end. And the next post.

I would suggest you start with Yad Vashem and digest every single article/document/source that is available on their site. The Holocaust Resource Center has numerous documents, articles and other items
http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/holocaust/resource_center/index.asp

The index for Righteous among Nations, for example, includes the following

Total Sources (by media type):
Artifact Collection 28
Diaries and Letters 1
Documents 1
Lexicon Entries 64
Photographs 45
Research 8
Testimonies 7
Works of Art 1

Total Sources 155

This category will provide masses of information about how some few Jews survived, how they avoided detection, and by implication how others were caught.

Another category is 'the Local Population', divided into several sections. One section deals with 'perpetrators and murderers'

The same information is available on Wikipedia in condensed form; careful surfing and following of links will arrive at the same results.

And there are also independent websites discussing the same issues. One archived site is called 'Saving Jews' and deals with Poland.

The thing you'll have to get over pretty rapidly is looking for a single source since you are dealing with events that took place on the territory of 25 contemporary nation-states. It has been obvious since the 1940s that events unfolded differently depending on the territory in question, because of differences in culture, politics, economics, social structure, wartime conditions, and the degree of ideological fervour of the occupying Nazis or their local pro-Nazi collaborators, as well as the background level of antisemitism.

I gave some examples from France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Poland up-thread. Obviously, each of these countries has its own encyclopedia entries, its own websites dedicated to the issues involved, and its own scholarly literature.

For example, the basic facts about the Holocaust in the Netherlands are summarised perfectly accurately in Wikipedia's entry on the history of the Jews in the Netherlands. The entry gives some perfectly decent online web pages as sources, which in turn refer to other sources, which in turn refer to primary sources. That's just how the world is with any subject in history.

Or you can continue googling, and will come across other sites, with the caveat that a lot of stuff isn't going to show up in an English keyword search, because duh, the sources will be in Dutch.

If you ask nicely, our Dutch members here - there are several participating in the discussion -will direct you to various sites, sources and materials about the Holocaust in the Netherlands. The Dutch research institute NIOD has scanned large amounts of documents from Westerbork which document the deportations; there are demographic studies, studies showing variations in the regions, and one can also read the standard work on the Holocaust in the Netherlands by Jacob Presser online, in Dutch.

Alternatively, you can simply order Bob Moore, Victims and Survivors, and get a really good summary of all the issues.

Or, you can order Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of European Jews, in any edition other than the student edition (which is overly condensed), and read his chapter on the Netherlands, and also read the chapters on other countries, since Hilberg gives very good summaries of the bureaucratic procedures involved.

By this stage, you should have realised that the Nuremberg records, in addition to the Eichmann trial records, are online, and since these contain a very great many answers to your questions, they can be read, too.

You really have two choices. One, you can reconstruct the massive research effort of others yourself with free materials, or two, you can order a few books from a library or bookshop, and benefit from the fact that you are asking questions which have pretty much already been answered. The freebie route will take a little longer.

Either route requires careful study and the use of multiple sources.
Click to expand...

Or you can cut to the chase by researching Spielberg's Academy Award winning Holocaust documentary The Last Days and Eli Wiesel's Holocaust lies and Eli's phantom tattoo.

I was going to say fathom tattoo but that may have been too deep for team Holocaust.
 
TSR said:
And a half dozen examples of these are ... ?

As proven by ... ?

FTFY


And no, it proves that the Jews are not the all powerful boogeymen you claim, since Israel let him go. It also proves that the German justice system works, since it was proven that he was a guard at Sobibor, Majdanek and Flossenbürg.
Click to expand...

Yeah right. And Israel overlooked that.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Yeah right. And Israel overlooked that.
Click to expand...

No, but you seem to have overlooked answering the two questions put to you.

Or shall we just add those the long long list of lies you've posted and from which you've then run?
 
Clayton Moore said:
Or you can cut to the chase by researching Spielberg's Academy Award winning Holocaust documentary The Last Days and Eli Wiesel's Holocaust lies and Eli's phantom tattoo.
Click to expand...
In what way do these address ST's questions about how the SS recognized the Jews to be rounded up or the statistics broekn down by region that zie asked for?

Have either of these people written or made films on those subjects?

Or has your obsession with them simply become too much for you to bear again?
 
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