Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[AlexW]

I think identifying GZ as a "neighborhood watch block captain" or whatnot conflates things a bit. It does inform as to his actions a bit; but from TM's perspective--this was a guy in plain clothes, in an unmarked vehicle, who at no time as fare as it's been reported identified himself in any kind of official capacity. We all know in hindsight that he was; but at the time of the incident it doesn't seem a stretch to me to say that TM might have found him and his behaviour threatening.

 

[RandFan]

I think you lost the thread somewhere...

You need to go look in the mirror.

...we were discussing the difference between the following of someone with and without a concealed weapon, following them is the same in both cases.

No. You have interpreted my words to mean something I never intended them to mean.

...then you're not in the same conversation as everyone else.

I'm in our conversation, you know, the one where you said:

There was no evidence that a crime wasn't being planned, and at least to GZ reason to believe it might be.

That a person could commit a crime is not justification to act on that possibility. That GZ had reason to believe a crime might be committed is not reason to put his life and the life of TM at risk.

If we acept that GZ's story is correct then there is no responsiblity on the the one that attacked him?

Straw man. Red herring as it relates to my point. I have argued over and over that TM could very well bear the responsibility of his death following the confrontation. That fact does not excuse the actions of GZ.

Are you suggesting that had TM gotten the gun and shot GZ that would have been fine because GZ was following him?

No. Again, straw man red herring. If TM attacked GZ then I would want TM to go to prison. I would still hold GZ, in part, responsible. Got it?

The problem is that your facts are not directly linked, and you leave out the ones that do link them and could change the story somewhat.

I only have a single solitary point. GZ didn't need to follow TM placing both of their lives in danger.

 

[Noztradamus]

How is following Martin "his job"?

It would require the dispatcher tapes to show

Dispatcher: George, raise your right hand and repeat "I'm a deputy"
Zimmerman: I'm a deputy
Dispatcher: You're a deputy. Go follow him.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The indictment says Zimmerman confronted Martin, not the other way around. On the other side of the ledger is Zimmerman's self-serving account via his family, which the detectives didn't buy. Who do people keep asserting that it's a fact that Martin approached Zimmerman?

We don't know which particular part of GZ story the detective didn't believe, do we ?

I don't know who keeps asserting its a fact. It's GZ self serving testimony that was leaked in the police report, and recounted by police to Tracy martin.

If TM was so scared of/concerned about GZ that he ran away ... why didn't he get home in the time GZ was on the phone. How is it that GZ was able to approach him ?

 

[Mumbles]

And if Martin has used the time he had while Zimmerman had lost him to go home and stay there rather then quite possibly turning around and confronting Zimmerman, then he'd still be alive and Zimmerman wouldn't be in Jail too. Oh that's right, he didn't really doublke back, Zimmerman is lying about his coming to the truck and questioning him about following him, and he really spent four minutes walking in a circles about a house instead of going straight for 70 yards and getting to safety.

the only possible time that Martin could have talked to Zimmerman, while Zimmerman was in his car, was before Zimmerman made his 911 call. And in this case, there are a lot of questions to ask. Why didn't Zimmerman mention the conversation in his call? Why did he lie to Martin? Why did he continue to follow Martin afterward? Why did the person Martin was talking to make no mention of this conversation?

And that's why I'm not willing to buy the police leaks or Zimmerman's family's ever-changing accounts. They only make him look more guilty, not less.

 

[johnny karate]

But I never said it was his job.

And I certainly didn't mean job in the literal sense.

Where are you going?

I said he might see it as his job to follow the person if the dispatcher basically tells him to keep an eye on the guy.

IE, the toilet has overflowed. I am the only one here. It is then "my job" to plunge it.

It's not literally my job.

Okay fine. But you used the word "job". So perhaps you meant "duty" or "responsibility" or whatever.

But the central question remains. How was it Zimmerman's "job", "duty" or "responsibility" - or whatever you want to call it - to follow Martin?

What reasonable basis could Zimmerman have for following an imagined instruction from a police dispatcher that was in direct violation to the rules of the neighborhood watch?

 

[RandFan]

I see you cliped the part asking if GZ had been the one shot...

Entirely irrelevant to my point.

Assume the following for sake of argument.

• GZ followed TM
• TM instigated a confrontation.
• TM got GZ's gun and killed GZ.

Are you still with me?

If so, then given those premises I conclude the following:

• TM should go to prison.
• GZ was reckless and contributed to his own death.

Are we clear yet?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

the only possible time that Martin could have talked to Zimmerman, while Zimmerman was in his car, was before Zimmerman made his 911 call. And in this case, there are a lot of questions to ask. Why didn't Zimmerman mention the conversation in his call? Why did he lie to Martin? Why did he continue to follow Martin afterward? Why did the person Martin was talking to make no mention of this conversation?

Obviously because that sneaky George had this planned all along. He didn't mention the conversation in his call because he intended to murder TM and it was all part of his devious plan.

 

[johnny karate]

What evidence do you have that GZ is lying?

Bigfoot lives in my garage.

What evidence do you have that I'm lying?

 

[Max_mang]

And that's why I'm not willing to buy the police leaks or Zimmerman's family's ever-changing accounts. They only make him look more guilty, not less.

What are those accounts and who said them and when?

 

[crimresearch]

Anybody in this thread live in area with a crime index as high as Sanford:
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/fl/sanford/crime/

I just put in all the most dangerous cities I know and only one of them came close to Sanford and Sanford was still worse.

You are joking, right? 6.6 violent crimes per 100K?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

the only possible time that Martin could have talked to Zimmerman, while Zimmerman was in his car, was before Zimmerman made his 911 call. And in this case, there are a lot of questions to ask. Why didn't Zimmerman mention the conversation in his call? Why did he lie to Martin? Why did he continue to follow Martin afterward? Why did the person Martin was talking to make no mention of this conversation?

And that's why I'm not willing to buy the police leaks or Zimmerman's family's ever-changing accounts. They only make him look more guilty, not less.

That's entirely untrue. Go listen or read Tracy Martins interview, where he describes what the police told him happened.

I really wish at this point in the thread you would just stop making things up.

 

[johnny karate]

I think identifying GZ as a "neighborhood watch block captain" or whatnot conflates things a bit. It does inform as to his actions a bit; but from TM's perspective--this was a guy in plain clothes, in an unmarked vehicle, who at no time as fare as it's been reported identified himself in any kind of official capacity. We all know in hindsight that he was; but at the time of the incident it doesn't seem a stretch to me to say that TM might have found him and his behaviour threatening.

Absolutely. But apparently on that "cold dark rainy night" it is only the behavior and actions of Trayvon Martin that can be perceived as suspicious or threatening.

 

[LTC8K6]

Okay fine. But you used the word "job". So perhaps you meant "duty" or "responsibility" or whatever.

But the central question remains. How was it Zimmerman's "job", "duty" or "responsibility" - or whatever you want to call it - to follow Martin?

What reasonable basis could Zimmerman have for following an imagined instruction from a police dispatcher that was in direct violation to the rules of the neighborhood watch?

Imagined? Is that your term? Or do I have to agree with your opinions in this discussion?

Why the leading questions?

Why wouldn't Zimmerman follow the direct order of the dispatcher to find out what Martin was doing and where he was going?

Seriously though, I think we have about exhausted this topic until we learn more facts. All we are doing is spinning our wheels. I don't see anything productive resulting from this.

 

[Mumbles]

What are those accounts and who said them and when?

Yeah, no, it's not my job to educate you about the basics of the media coverage of this case. This has all been covered in this thread, get to reading.

 

[Mumbles]

Obviously because that sneaky George had this planned all along. He didn;t mention the conversation in his call because he intended to murder TM and it was all part of his devious plan.

Had what planned? What are you talking about?

 

[crimresearch]

What are those accounts and who said them and when?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231831

 

[TheL8Elvis]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231831

 

[Max_mang]

Yeah, no, it's not my job to educate you about the basics of the media coverage of this case. This has all been covered in this thread, get to reading.

So you're repeating things that you heard that support your partisan view while discarding others and you refuse to back up your statements. Gotcha. On ignore you go. Anyone who says their knowledge is from 'media coverage' while pretending to cite facts on this case is a complete waste of time.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231831

That had me really "lol" .