Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[TheL8Elvis]

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm occasionally reasonable

 

[LTC8K6]

But you said Zimmerman might see it as "his job"? How is that his job?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Or... just perhaps feel threatened or uneasy, as apparently Martin did, and justifiably so. Remember, it was a "cold dark rainy night" (or do we only use these ominous descriptions when talking about how "suspicious" Martin must have looked) and Martin was walking alone. Zimmerman watched him from his car and then got out of his car to follow him. Any reasonable person would perceive that as threatening behavior.

After TM had already run. You can't claim that GZ getting out of his car caused TM to flee, when he'd already fled prior to that happening.

 

[johnny karate]

Huh?

He's been chosen to "watch" the neighborhood. He's been asked to report what Martin was doing, and where he was going, by the dispatcher.

Why wouldn't he start following Martin?

Because neighborhood watch rules specifically forbid doing so.

If "his job" was to be the neighborhood watch captain, then "his job" would entail following the rules as member of the neighborhood watch.

I don't see how an imagined instruction from a police dispatcher supersedes those rules and somehow gives Zimmerman a new "job" in opposition to them.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Except we only have evidence of Zimmerman's errors of judgment.

No we don't. Whether you accept it as true or no, GZ's statements are evidence and he claims that TM approached him, twice. Once at the truck (which wasn't during the 911 call so if true must have happened later) and once shortly after that, right before the fight. TM had plenty of time to travel the 70 yards home, but instead appears to have returned and confronted GZ, twice. Those would be rather serious errors.

 

[johnny karate]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

But he's the neighborhood watch captain, and you aren't.

He would naturally follow Martin if the dispatcher said that to him, I'd think.

He'd see it as his job.

How is following Martin "his job"?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Following someone does.

I think you lost the thread somewhere, we were discussing the difference between the following of someone with and without a concealed weapon, following them is the same in both cases.

Given that it can then it would be advisable not to follow someone you think is suspicious in light of the facts that no crime has been committed and there is no imminent danger.

I already stated I nthink he made a dumb move in doing it, but I can understand his doing it too.

I didn't say acting strange.

then you're not in the same conversation as everyone else.

• The fight would not have occurred had GZ stayed in his vehicle.
• TM had not committed a crime.
• There was no imminent danger.
• It was not necessary for GZ to follow TM thus putting both of their lives at risk.

If we accept Zimmerman's story then he feared for his life. His actions put him (Zimmerman) at risk. Given the fact that Martin is dead we know that Zimmerman put Martin's life at risk by following him (Martin).

If we acept that GZ's story is correct then there is no responsiblity on the the one that attacked him? Are you suggesting that had TM gotten the gun and shot GZ that would have been fine because GZ was following him?

Those facts are not going to change.

The problem is that your facts are not directly linked, and you leave out the ones that do link them and could change the story somewhat.

 

[Noztradamus]

Well, we all have opinions.

If you twice asked me to let you know if a guy does anything, and that guy is walking among some houses, I'd probably have to follow him.

Maybe that's just me.

If you twice told me a guy was doing nothing, I'd probably tell you to let me know if he actually does something.

Maybe that's just me

 

[curi0us]

Anybody in this thread live in area with a crime index as high as Sanford:
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/fl/sanford/crime/

I just put in all the most dangerous cities I know and only one of them came close to Sanford and Sanford was still worse.

 

[RandFan]

Dispatcher request, not NW rules.

We are going around in circles here. It can't be his job because it's his job. And nowhere does the dispatcher say "follow him". If there is ambiguity then discretion is the better part of valor. I honestly think you do GZ no favors with this line of argument. Making leaps of logic is not the mark of reason.

 

[Unabogie]

Sanford is indeed a dangerous city. It's the kind of place you can be shot just going to the store for some snacks.

 

[LTC8K6]

Because neighborhood watch rules specifically forbid doing so.

If "his job" was to be the neighborhood watch captain, then "his job" would entail following the rules as member of the neighborhood watch.

I don't see how an imagined instruction from a police dispatcher supersedes those rules and somehow gives Zimmerman a new "job" in opposition to them.

But I never said it was his job.

And I certainly didn't mean job in the literal sense.

Where are you going?

I said he might see it as his job to follow the person if the dispatcher basically tells him to keep an eye on the guy.

IE, the toilet has overflowed. I am the only one here. It is then "my job" to plunge it.

It's not literally my job.

 

[PhantomWolf]

But it increases the likelihood of that confrontation turning lethal, which I believe was RandFan's point.

Or it might prevent one becoming lethal. In different circumstances, and assuming TM did attack first, had GZ had his weapon visible, it may have stopped the attack from occuring and no one would have died.

You know what else is funny? Those same neighborhood watch programs and police will tell you not to follow suspected criminals with a gun. So I guess we need to figure to what degree we're going to give Zimmerman a pass for supposedly following the rules.

Since the rules aren't law from a legal stand point it doesn't matter if he followed the NW rules or not.

The following was antecedent to the fight. No following, no fight. Had Zimmerman simply stayed in his truck (according to the rules of the neighborhood watch, which seem to be suddenly back on the table), Martin would still be alive and Zimmerman wouldn't be in jail.

And if Martin has used the time he had while Zimmerman had lost him to go home and stay there rather then quite possibly turning around and confronting Zimmerman, then he'd still be alive and Zimmerman wouldn't be in Jail too. Oh that's right, he didn't really doublke back, Zimmerman is lying about his coming to the truck and questioning him about following him, and he really spent four minutes walking in a circles about a house instead of going straight for 70 yards and getting to safety.

 

[crimresearch]

Conflict of interest can be a real pain in the ass.

Looks like a straightforward request.

The legal community can be almost incestuous. Note that Judge Lance Ito's wife was the supervisor of the detectives in the OJ trial, and he didn't step down.

 

[PhantomWolf]

• GZ had a gun.
• GZ followed TM
• GZ shot TM
• TM is dead.
• If GZ had not followed TM then he (TM) would very likely be alive today.

Now, you can try as hard as you like to dance around the facts but they are the facts.

I see you cliped the part asking if GZ had been the one shot it would have been his fault, does that mean you think it would have been?

 

[Unabogie]

The indictment says Zimmerman confronted Martin, not the other way around. On the other side of the ledger is Zimmerman's self-serving account via his family, which the detectives didn't buy. Who do people keep asserting that it's a fact that Martin approached Zimmerman?

 

[johnny karate]

After TM had already run. You can't claim that GZ getting out of his car caused TM to flee, when he'd already fled prior to that happening.

I didn't say Zimmerman getting out of his car would cause Martin to flee. I said it would cause him to feel threatened.

No we don't.

Yes, we do. While armed, Zimmerman followed a suspected criminal. In violation of neighborhood watch rules. That is an error of judgment.

Whether you accept it as true or no, GZ's statements are evidence and he claims that TM approached him, twice. Once at the truck (which wasn't during the 911 call so if true must have happened later) and once shortly after that, right before the fight. TM had plenty of time to travel the 70 yards home, but instead appears to have returned and confronted GZ, twice. Those would be rather serious errors.

"Approach" and "confront" are not necessarily synonymous terms. And considering that Martin's following reaction was to flee, you can hardly attribute anything confrontational in his approach to Zimmerman.

Again, there is no evidence Martin made any "errors of judgment".

 

[Max_mang]

I'll state quite flatly, if someone were to follow me around, and particularly if they were to approach me and stick their hand in their pocket as Zimmerman supposedly did, I would beat them until they stopped moving, and I wouldn't feel the slightest remorse for it.

Regarding the highlighted part:

Do we know that Z approached Trayvon?

Whose hand went into whose pocket? I've not heard of this and have been following this closely, where is that described in any report?

 

[Moss]

The indictment says Zimmerman confronted Martin, not the other way around. On the other side of the ledger is Zimmerman's self-serving account via his family, which the detectives didn't buy. Who do people keep asserting that it's a fact that Martin approached Zimmerman?

Seems to be a combination of the maps trying to make sense of where what happened and the bits of testimony by GZ that the media gave out.

 

[PhantomWolf]

This assumes Martin had a "bad reaction". We don't know that he did.

And for the record, the only victim here is Trayvon Martin. That you cite the "Don't blame the victim" argument while in the process of vilifying Martin is supremely ironic.

Actually it doesn't assume anything of the sort, it was purely generic, hence the words Follower and Followee. When talking about the specific people in the case I use GZ and TM. You were the one that inserted then into the top senario.

I'm not sure why the hypotheticals have to always be about the awful things Martin might have done.

Because a hypthetical reversing the situation can't include terrible things done by little green aliens?

I don't think anyone is arguing that Zimmerman didn't have the right to defend himself if his story is true. The argument is that - at least for me - I don't believe Zimmerman's story is true.

What evidence do you have that GZ is lying?