Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Moss]

And this is relevant to the events of the Night because...?

 

[PhantomWolf]

From reading acorss the net and newspapers of varisous stripes, it is clear there are two camps, those who depseratly want GZ to be some kind of nazi gun totting loon with an agenda

or those who desperatly want TM to have been committing a crime in order to exonerate GZ or fulfill some kind of racial profileing of crime agenda.

Such partisan thinking again, you're missing those in the middle who think both men made errors of judgement and that we don't know who is responsible because we don't know who started the fight.

To me GZ was a fool who with the best of intentions tried to do something for the community he clearly was not cut out to do, with tragic consequences he has taken a life nothing no legal siphistry is going to change that, he is responsible and culpable.

Unless he actually was attacked at which point he is legally entitled to defend himself regardless of how dumb his decisions up to then have been.

Esentially to deny self defence is to declare that if someone takes offense with you apparently following them, they are allows to attack you and beat you as badly as they like, and you are not allowed to do anything to prevent it since you were following them.

 

[CORed]

From reading acorss the net and newspapers of varisous stripes, it is clear there are two camps, those who depseratly want GZ to be some kind of nazi gun totting loon with an agenda

or those who desperatly want TM to have been committing a crime in order to exonerate GZ or fulfill some kind of racial profileing of crime agenda.

To me GZ was a fool who with the best of intentions tried to do something for the community he clearly was not cut out to do, with tragic consequences he has taken a life nothing no legal siphistry is going to change that, he is responsible and culpable.

Yes, that's pretty much my take on it. There are a lot of details that we don't know that will determine whether he is convicted of any crime, but the incident is a textbook example of why untrained civilians should not try to act like cops. If GZ has stayed in his car after calling the police, TM would be alive today.

 

[PhantomWolf]

It's reasonable to get away from such a person, if they're staring at you, yes. And it's very reasonable to become alarmed if you discover them following you - in fact, it would be stupid to not treat that person as a threat.

OMG that person in that car is staring at me while talking on the phone, call the FBI and the National Guard!!!!

And of course, given Zimmerman's bizarre anger and inability to describe any sort of problem with Martin's behavior, we have no reason to think that Martin actually ran in the first place, but that's another issue.

You still haven't listened to the 911 call have you?

 

[Noztradamus]

There was no evidence that a crime wasn't being planned,

What does evidence that a crime is not being planned look like? Enquiring minds want to know

 

[johnny karate]

I am just tired of people claiming GZ had no reason to call 911. He did have a reason. The NW groups say 'call if you see something suspicious' etc. So yes, let's agree he was justified in calling and move on.

I agree, at least insofar that I have no problem with Zimmerman calling 911. I don't think he had a legitimate reason to do so, but apparently he felt he did, and that's good enough to warrant a call.

So by the those same neighborhood watch rules you are citing, can we agree that Zimmerman violated them when, with a gun, he exited his car to follow Martin?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

What does evidence that a crime is not being planned look like? Enquiring minds want to know

Being white and not wearing a hoodie. Also proper rain attire.

 

[johnny karate]

OMG that person in that car is staring at me while talking on the phone, call the FBI and the National Guard!!!!

Or... just perhaps feel threatened or uneasy, as apparently Martin did, and justifiably so. Remember, it was a "cold dark rainy night" (or do we only use these ominous descriptions when talking about how "suspicious" Martin must have looked) and Martin was walking alone. Zimmerman watched him from his car and then got out of his car to follow him. Any reasonable person would perceive that as threatening behavior.

 

[johnny karate]

Such partisan thinking again, you're missing those in the middle who think both men made errors of judgement...

Except we only have evidence of Zimmerman's errors of judgment.

 

[PhantomWolf]

First off, I don't know that it has been established but even if it has, there are reasons for rules. A person who has a gun has responsibilities to ensure other people's safety.

And at what point did GZ fail to consider other people's safety?

"Ran off"? I don't know that for a fact.

Then I suggest you listen to the 911 call instead of just reading the transcript. 6 secs after GZ says TM ran off, he gets out of the car and starts running himself. If TM hadn't run, where was GZ going?

I have, I don't remember "run off". I think you are making that up. My apologies if not.

About 2 minutes 5 seconds in he says "**** he's running"
The dspatcher responds, "He's running? Which way is he running?" and makes a note into the call log that the suspect is running.
GZ then responses that he's running "down towards the entrance"

then again after he stops running, about 30 secs later, and the Operator asks his name he says "George.... He ran"

 

[PhantomWolf]

First off, the gun make the confrontation more risky.

but doesn't increase the likelihood of confrontation

Second, people who are armed can give the holders a sense of power to act recklessly. I don't know if the second part is true in this case but you did ask the question.

There is not evidence that it did, though I sure some would love to claim it so.

Fatuous. By this logic everyone should call the police every time someone sees someone strange.

Funny thing, Neighbour Watch and the Police would suggest that if you saw someone you though was acting strange, you should.

TM is dead.

Though not because he was being followed. He's dead because he got involved in a fight.

 

[triforcharity]

There's currently no evidence that GZ made any mistakes.

Well, except for the fact that he's in jail facing life in prison....

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, except for the fact that he's in jail facing life in prison....

Sure. Innocent folks are never in that situation.

 

[Moss]

Well, except for the fact that he's in jail facing life in prison....

Depending on what comes to light at trial I'd be wary to assert either side made a mistake.
Though depending on your visual and other acuity it might be easy to mistake someone talking via headset for someone psychotic or on drugs.

 

[LTC8K6]

Anyone know what the quick hearing they just had today was about?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Where did GZ leave his vehicle and what was the interval from when TM's friend hears the headset drop and the call is dropped?

The truck was about 35 yards from the place the fight occured. There was about 4 minutes between GZ leaving the truck and the TM's phone cutting off on the call with his gf.

 

[RandFan]

but doesn't increase the likelihood of confrontation

Following someone does.

There is not evidence that it did, though I sure some would love to claim it so.

Given that it can then it would be advisable not to follow someone you think is suspicious in light of the facts that no crime has been committed and there is no imminent danger.

Funny thing, Neighbour Watch and the Police would suggest that if you saw someone you though was acting strange, you should.

I didn't say acting strange.

Though not because he was being followed. He's dead because he got involved in a fight.

• The fight would not have occurred had GZ stayed in his vehicle.
• TM had not committed a crime.
• There was no imminent danger.
• It was not necessary for GZ to follow TM thus putting both of their lives at risk.

If we accept Zimmerman's story then he feared for his life. His actions put him (Zimmerman) at risk. Given the fact that Martin is dead we know that Zimmerman put Martin's life at risk by following him (Martin).



Those facts are not going to change.

 

[CORed]

I agree, at least insofar that I have no problem with Zimmerman calling 911. I don't think he had a legitimate reason to do so, but apparently he felt he did, and that's good enough to warrant a call.

So by the those same neighborhood watch rules you are citing, can we agree that Zimmerman violated them when, with a gun, he exited his car to follow Martin?

I don't really fault Zimmerman for calling the police, whether his suspicion about Martin was correct or not. Where he went wrong was in following him.

 

[LTC8K6]

Depending on what comes to light at trial I'd be wary to assert either side made a mistake.
Though depending on your visual and other acuity it might be easy to mistake someone talking via headset for someone psychotic or on drugs.

Good point if Martin was using BT. Those BT headsets still get me from time to time. I either think the person is nuts, or I think they are talking to me.

 

[Moss]

The exact parking location of GZ's truck is known? Seem to have missed that. I guess the police would try to get that down.