Merged Cold Fusion Claims

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TjW said:
He's offered to consider evidence. It would appear that makes him a more reasoned skeptic than you are.
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What makes you think I'm a skeptic, let alone a reasoned one?? It would probably be wise to at least get the players straight before jumping in and on, along with the rest of the "pile on" crowd.
Still - - no one has given me a good reason why I should have to provide evidence to those who have not laid a solid ground work for their skeptical position.
 
attaboy said:
There's a lot of wisdom in that commentary.
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There was no "wisdom" in that commentary. There was pteridine's fantasy that ben m had looked at the entire body of evidence for cold fusion.
We can show that scientific fraud is probably happening: Proof of Rossi’s Deception

attaboy said:
This JREF adventure has caused me to be a skeptic, ....
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As far as we can see you have no idea what a skeptic is. A skeptic is a person who requires that assertions be supported by credible evidence.
Rossi's assertions over the last few years about his devices had not been supported by the evidence. His claimed power output would produce much more steam than has been observed. His experimental methods have been abysmal. He has not submitted his devices to independent testing. The proposed mechanism (creation of Cu from Ni + p) is idiotically easy to debunk (see the start of the thread)

There are scientists (ben m), ex-scientists (me!) and people who know that the scientific community does not "wait for the evidence". It evaluates the available evidence and discards a theory if that evidence is wanting. The evidence for LENR is wanting. No one is waiting for it to magically appear. It is up to the people who believe in LENR to produce strong enough evidence to convince scientists that LENR exists. That evidence really basic: reproducible experiments that produce excess heat and any expected nuclear byproducts (neutrons, gamma rays, etc.) from the LENR process.
 
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pteridine said:
Where is your evidence for your claim that Rossi is committing/committed fraud?
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You need to read other posts: Proof of Rossi’s Deception

Your question is moot in any case since ben m has never stated that Rossi has committed fraud (scientific or financial), e.g.
ben m said:
I've clicked through lots and lots of papers, and seen lots of evidence, not of fraud, but of incompetence.
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ETA: Of course if you persist in this unsupported (so far) assertion then it becomes the rather dumb strawman argument.
 
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attaboy said:
What makes you think I'm a skeptic, let alone a reasoned one?? It would probably be wise to at least get the players straight before jumping in and on, along with the rest of the "pile on" crowd.
Still - - no one has given me a good reason why I should have to provide evidence to those who have not laid a solid ground work for their skeptical position.
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What - the absence of evidence doesn't do it for you?
 
pteridine said:
Where is your evidence for your claim that Rossi is committing/committed fraud? How do you know Rossi perpetrates fraud? Has he collected any money and not delivered a unit that he was paid for? You have jumped to conclusions without evidence, not a good example to set.
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This has nothing to do with my post you quoted.
 
attaboy said:
This thread reminds me of the old Al Capp cartoon regarding SWINE. In this case it could be interpreted as Skeptics Wildly Indignant about Nearly Everything.
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In other word, since you have no evidence available, you resort to ad hominem.

Gosh i am sure real cold fusion researcher are glad to have you as a supporter : you give them a good name :D.
 
attaboy said:
Do you really think that many renderings on this board deserve anything more than silly responses??
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Funny things is, if you had any good argument you would be presenting them. the fact that you don't and instead resort to insult show your true color. You are attempting to deflect it with "you are not worth my time" but the fact : 1) that you keep posting investing more time here instead of going away and giving up this thread and 2) we are used to that exact same poor argument "you are not worth my time" with all sort of woo like dowser, psychic whatever, homeopath place you right there in that group.

What makes you all think I need to provide you evidence.
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You seem to have a claim that cold fusion work. We have no claim. We are skeptic. We just expect evidence from claim. Evidence which was not forthcoming.

If anything, it is you who needs to make a better case for having a much better grasp of all aspects of Cold Fusion than is now indicated that you have. Moreover, it is you who needs to make a much better case in support of your show of total skepticism of Cold Fusion.
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It reeks of attempt of classic reversal of role , usually used by woo "it is not me which need to prove that X exists, it is you which claim it does not exists". Whereas X is cold fusion or homeopathy does not matter. For new unproven claims the burden is never on the skeptic case to be made. It is on the claimant. Ergo, if you are unable to build a case, then it is your problem.

the bottom line is , cold fusion at the moment is an hypothesis for which we have had no reproducible evidence.
 
attaboy said:
Do you really think that many renderings on this board deserve anything more than silly responses??

What makes you all think I need to provide you evidence. If anything, it is you who needs to make a better case for having a much better grasp of all aspects of Cold Fusion than is now indicated that you have. Moreover, it is you who needs to make a much better case in support of your show of total skepticism of Cold Fusion.
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And again with the evasions and attempts to shift the burden of proof, how typical for a wooster...............:rolleyes:

You are the one claiming that cold fusion actually works; however neither you nor any other advocate has managed to actually show it working under controlled, repeatable, fraud resistant conditions.
Ever.

Your claim, your burden of proof.
Now, how about providing some evidence for you claim?
 
attaboy said:
There's a lot of wisdom in that commentary. This JREF adventure has caused me to be a skeptic, skeptical of the motives behind this total rabid denouncement of Rossi by the JREF skeptics. If ever something seemed "fishy", this denouncement is it. You skeptics give the impression that you could be coming from a dark place. Just your trying to make the word "conspiracy" out to be a dirty word just adds fuel to the fire of suspicion surrounding your activity in this thread.
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Perhaps it's down to Rossi's history of alt-energy fraud? Or the fake degree he claims to lend credibility for the gullible (he's no degree in science or engineering).
Or perhaps the blog he created and tries to pass off as a peer reviewed journal? The one whose "advisers" include a dead psychologist and several people who've denied any connection to it or Rossi?
Maybe the web of companies, many names suspiciously similarly to genuine alternate energy technology companies? Or the fuzziness in the way Rossi uses those names, to imply non-existent connection?

Or maybe it's down to his failure to actually show his magic water heater actually works, before extracting money from investors?
 
Aepervius said:
Funny things is, if you had any good argument you would be presenting them. the fact that you don't and instead resort to insult show your true color. You are attempting to deflect it with "you are not worth my time" but the fact : 1) that you keep posting investing more time here instead of going away and giving up this thread and 2) we are used to that exact same poor argument "you are not worth my time" with all sort of woo like dowser, psychic whatever, homeopath place you right there in that group.

.
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When the woos start insulting then you know they have lost the argument. They know it too.
 
attaboy said:
Do you really think that many renderings on this board deserve anything more than silly responses??

What makes you all think I need to provide you evidence. If anything, it is you who needs to make a better case for having a much better grasp of all aspects of Cold Fusion than is now indicated that you have. Moreover, it is you who needs to make a much better case in support of your show of total skepticism of Cold Fusion.
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So still no evidence and just more arm waving?

That still means no evidence from you.

Wizard of Oz: Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
 
attaboy said:
There's a lot of wisdom in that commentary. This JREF adventure has caused me to be a skeptic, skeptical of the motives behind this total rabid denouncement of Rossi by the JREF skeptics. If ever something seemed "fishy", this denouncement is it. You skeptics give the impression that you could be coming from a dark place. Just your trying to make the word "conspiracy" out to be a dirty word just adds fuel to the fire of suspicion surrounding your activity in this thread.
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When Rossi shows a still water bath demonstration and allows monitoring of the power leads, I would consider the results.
 
attaboy said:
Do you really think that many renderings on this board deserve anything more than silly responses??

What makes you all think I need to provide you evidence. If anything, it is you who needs to make a better case for having a much better grasp of all aspects of Cold Fusion than is now indicated that you have. Moreover, it is you who needs to make a much better case in support of your show of total skepticism of Cold Fusion.
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I think you have that backwards. If nobody can demonstrate that cold fusion is real, then it has no aspects to grasp. Your argument could apply to any unknown, whether it's real, a scam, or a delusion. I don't understand all the aspects of a Star Trek hyperdrive either, or the intercession of saints. Yet I doubt them too.
 
pteridine said:
Rossi was imprisoned unjustly and has had the conviction thrown out or he would not have the US visa he has. So much for that issue.
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You're absolutely right!! And as you can see the fraud illusionists are getting really frantic to discredit our posts even to the point of talking such nonsense as role reversal and not having made any claims. Its a good thing I came back on here. Now they have a life again:D.
 
Let's remember the long history of real scientific discoveries (now commonplace of course) for which the original evidence was "the fraud conviction was overturned" and "there's no comprehensive proof of incompetence".

Like high temperature superconductors! Remember the theory-shattering announcement of LBCO in 1986? Didn't that come in the form of a blog-post from an unknown nonphysicist, who promised to have a $50,000 hovercar on the market by 1987? And didn't people call him a fraud when he couldn't even show a resistivity curve? He was vindicated in the end, if I remember, even though the first affordable hovercar didn't hit the market until '91.

Like Edison and the light bulb! Edison developed the light bulb in complete secrecy, and he never patented it in order to protect his secret filament technology! That's why the consumer public never even saw light from a light bulb, much less a theory to explain them, until the Teapot Dome Industrial Espionage scandal of '38. But all of the people who spent the '20s saying "there is no such thing as a light bulb" had to eat crow.
 
Attaboy

Rossi says he has an energy machine, and he's taking money from investors. Explain to me why he doesn't require to provide evidence that his machine works. And if you want us to believe Rossi's statements we are entitled to ask you for evidence that they are true.
 
Whoa, guys. There's been Ponzi schemes, but that doesn't mean all investment is a scam. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Don't write off cold fusion, not when there's no such thing as heat at the subatomic level. A "hot" particle is a fast-moving particle, that's all. The important thing is pressure. Go look at cold welding.
 
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