Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[PhantomWolf]

This meme needs to die already.

One of the perks of having your son shot to death is you get to pick the photos the media uses when they report the story. That people want to second guess the family and infer some kind of ulterior motive is insane.

You seem to think that pointing out that the selection of the photo lead to the a huge spin about how TM was basically a kid, rather then a tall 17-year old is somehow an attack on the family rather then a statement of reality. The out of date photo lead to incorrect beliefs about what could have happened, surely as skeptics and people who want the truth, any untruth that creates misconception should be noted and dealt with, not just those that point out allows us to support our own bias.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I can't fault either family for wanting to protect the image of their loved ones. Attacking them is kind of perverse. I don't care if they did consciously or sub consciously try and alter the perceptions. We can find the truth without demonizing people in pain. George Zimmerman's and Trayvon Martin's family are suffering.

I don't think that pointing out that the photo was used to create a false impression is "attacking" and "demonising" people.

 

[RandFan]

I wouldn't be surprised if GZ approached TM and let him know in uncertain terms what he thought of people sneaking about and what the F was he doing there.

Doing so armed. Approaching TM while armed would escalate the situation. I'd like to think people aren't that stupid but we both know better.

• There was no evidence that a crime had been committed.
• There was no imminent danger prior to GZ choosing to follow TM.

I don't know what scenario is likely. I'll wait on that. Assuming GZ followed TM to the point of the confrontation then his actions put both GZ and TM at risk for no reason beyond suspicion.

 

[RandFan]

...the truth is getting hidden by the speculation and the falsehoods that are being spread, the two year old photo is just another of those.

And your speculation about TM running away? Your acceptance of GZ's testimony as if it were fact in evidence?

 

[PhantomWolf]

What reason do you have to believe Martin was acting suspiciously other than Zimmerman claims he was?[]/quote]

Because short of believing in CT, there is zero reason to not accept the 911 call as genuine unless proven otherwise. Currently there is zero evidence that it isn't what happened. I'd add to that that walking about in the rain on a cold, dark night with just a hoodie on as protection is suspicious in itself. While there might be innocent reasons for doing so, it's not normal behaviour.

Before you answer, consider the fact that Zimmerman also theorized Martin was on drugs. And it turns out his ace detective skills were off the mark on that call.

He said he was acting like he was on drugs. This does not describe someone simlpy walking down the sidewalk minding their own business. Is there any evidence that Zimmerman made a habit of reporting and following anyone that was walking alone on the streets at night?

 

[RandFan]

I don't think that pointing out that the photo was used to create a false impression is "attacking" and "demonising" people.

"Was used"? Do you have proof of intent?

Did they really not have any decent photos that weren't two years old?

If you are simply interested in the truth perhaps you could avoid casting aspersions at the Martins?

 

[curi0us]

So what? If your kid had just been gunned down and the media wants a photo are you just going to turn over all your photos or are you going to pick out one you think they looked nice in?

So what? I just explained why it mattered with multiple links explaining the situation and you just quote responded to that post yet snipped out the answer. Unless your Johnny Karate's sock this was a weak ass way to jump into an argument with me

Since you didn't bother to read or think about what I wrote I'll spell it out for again. Mary Cutcher is actually a fantastic witness for GZ but she was tricked (like a lot of other people) into thinking something very different happened then what she initially saw/heard by a concerted campaign to mislead the people on TM's age/size. Her telling the media she knew it wasn't self defense was rooted in her idea that TM was a "little boy".

Cynicism usually is. Otherwise it's just a symptom of an unwell mind.

I've have suspicion you are massively underestimating my experience here though.

I seem to remember the Hippies in college making a huge fuss about trying to release him for reasons that I never understood.

Therein lies the problem. You don't understand so you can't see the pattern. Mumia was nothing new.

So now TM is a thug? Where does this come from?

I said "maybe" and it was in the context of explaining the complex emotional situational TM's parents are in. TM's mom has insisted the person screaming was her son. But TM's father originally told the police it wasn't and TM's brother has also said (inconclusively)he didn't recognize the screams as TM either. At the crime scene GZ said to the police, "I kept yelling for help, but nobody would help me." There have been three partial witness accounts that support GZ claims that he was the screamer. At the scene police noted GZ had a bloody nose, blood on the back of his head, and his back was wet, all consistent with his account of TM being on top of him pummeling him. GZ's family members have always said it was GZ's voice. So it looks to me like TM's mother's hearing was so biased she convinced herself that her son was the one screaming for help when her son was actually the one beating the man screaming for help.

What is really key to understanding the importance of the screams is that if it is Zimmerman screaming then like dominos it knocks down a bunch of other points about the case.

When I say "maybe" TM was more of a thug then his parents realized just TM beating on another man while he is yelling for help over a minute is pretty damn thuggish all by itself. If you haven't already done so go listen to 911 audio with the screams closely. I've always been very consistent in my belief that if the screams really were Martin then GZ committed a serious murder beyond a doubt. But if the screams are GZ it makes TM seem like a violent thug and GZ comes across as actually really restrained. If GZ was really the reckless hothead everyone portrays him to be why would he be screaming for help for a full minute before shooting TM? On the flip side, if TM was really the good boy on the "right path" as his parents say why did he keep beating the person underneath him who was screaming?

Now the next question is why are TM and GZ fighting exactly? We will never know for sure but GZ said TM punched him without provocation. Nobody has presented any proof that GZ's version is not true. So now you have to accept that "maybe" TM punched GZ without provocation and then beat him for over a minute while GZ was desperately screaming for help. That's definitely thug behavior if it is how it happened.

So then go back to what started the incident. GZ thought TM was acting suspicious looking into buildings with the implication that he maybe thought he was a burglar. By a rather incredible coincidence one of TM's three recent school suspensions involved his backpack containing a dozen pieces of women's jewelry he couldn't explain the source of and a large flat head screw driver that was thought to be a likely burglary tool. On top of that TM's twitter account @no_limit_***** is full of trash talk and what seems like a reference to another assault (?) which along with his TM's multiple tattoos and gold teeth makes me think your reaction to my use of the word "thug" was naiveté.

Look if Zimmerman had been doing what he should have been doing--sitting in his house gorging himself while watching TV--instead of out in the rain chasing down phantom criminals committing phantom crimes none of this would have ever happened.

How many victims of violent crimes have you known? Find one and start making up details of what happened to them while telling them what they should have done differently mixed in with some cheap insults and see how well that goes.

The what?

Maybe you can explain to me why the New Black Panthers putting a bounty on Zimmerman was legal?

Or perhaps you could tell me why Cutcher changed her story?

Or tell me why some ridiculously woo and obviously wrong audio "experts" were all over the news saying how the person screaming wasn't Zimmerman?

 

[RandFan]

Because short of believing in CT, there is zero reason to not accept the 911 call as genuine unless proven otherwise.

I can accept that the call to police is genuine and also believe that it is possible that GZ is a whack job or is simply hyper sensitive seeing suspicion all over the place. Given the number of calls he made that would tend to support that idea. How many of those calls led to arrests?

 

[Checkmite]

I don't think that pointing out that the photo was used to create a false impression is "attacking" and "demonising" people.

It is an attack, and purely supposition on your part. If its the only photo the media had, they simply could not have used another photo; it would have been impossible, do you understand?

 

[Checkmite]

I can accept that the call to police is genuine and also believe that it is possible that GZ is a whack job or is simply hyper sensitive seeing suspicion all over the place. Given the number of calls he made that would tend to support that idea. How many of those calls led to arrests?

IIRC, his neighbors mentioned that one time one of his calls helped catch a thief, although the particulars of the incident are nonexistent. Much hay was made over it nonetheless; I'm sure it certainly inspired Zimmerman to "help" more.

 

[PhantomWolf]

"Was used"? Do you have proof of intent?

Did the photo being used by the media create a false impression, yes or no?

If you are simply interested in the truth perhaps you could avoid casting aspersions at the Martins?

Perhaps you should read the entire conversation. No aspersions were being cast at the Martins, the poster that was a response to claimed they picked a photo that showed TM as being "well-kempt and good-looking" my inquiry was to determine why they didn't pick a newer one of him that showed him as being "well-kempt and good-looking." I know that when I was 17 my mother had photos of me at 17, and I hated having my photo taken, and we had to do all with film camera, not digital like we have today. I find it strange that they would not have had a more recent image that would have worked just as well. I'm not saying that they did it deliberately to fool people, I'm just curious as to why the older photo was used.

 

[PhantomWolf]

No; the media used the two year old photos because that's all they had, because that's what the family had available at the time the media asked for a photo. It's not a "falsehood", it was not "designed to create a false impression". That's nonsense.

Whether or not it was meant to do it, it did do it, thus it would be interesting to know why it was selected. Ity appears you are uninterested in learning why.

Why not?

Because walking towards a car with a person on the phone in it, staring at them and then turning and running off is not exactly normal behaviour.

It's not like we're talking about an alley here. Between the rows of houses is a large open greenspace with a sidewalk running through it that's actually the most direct and natural route to Trayvon's destination.

Your point? It wasn't the direction TM ran off in that was suspicious, it was that he ran in the first place. As is often said in cop shows... innocent people don't run.

 

[johnny karate]

Because short of believing in CT, there is zero reason to not accept the 911 call as genuine unless proven otherwise. Currently there is zero evidence that it isn't what happened.

I'm not suggesting the 911 call wasn't genuine. I'm suggesting that Zimmerman's judgment was perhaps impaired. You seem to take it as a fact that Martin was behaving suspiciously. I'd like to know why.

I'd add to that that walking about in the rain on a cold, dark night with just a hoodie on as protection is suspicious in itself. While there might be innocent reasons for doing so, it's not normal behaviour.

First of all, the low temperature for that day was 53 degrees. And considering that it was only about an hour or so past sunset, I'm not sure how cold it was. I'm guessing not very.

Secondly, the mere act of walking around after dark in the rain is suspicious? Are you serious? A word of advice: Don't go to New York City on a rainy night. You won't like what you see.

He said he was acting like he was on drugs. This does not describe someone simlpy walking down the sidewalk minding their own business.

Again, you're just taking Zimmerman at his word with no other substantiating evidence. You need to consider the idea that maybe Zimmerman is a moron who didn't know what he was talking about.

Is there any evidence that Zimmerman made a habit of reporting and following anyone that was walking alone on the streets at night?

He absolutely had a habit of reporting people. That has been documented. Whether or not he followed them, I don't know. But it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[RandFan]

Did the photo being used by the media create a false impression, yes or no?

I've already conceded that it did. Now, could you answer my questions?

Did they really not have any decent photos that weren't two years old?

...

...my inquiry was to determine why they didn't pick a newer one of him that showed him as being "well-kempt and good-looking."

To what end? What good could come of the answer? Would it illuminate why TM is dead?

I find it strange that they would not have had a more recent image that would have worked just as well.

Okay, and? Do you know what the word "aspersion" means? What possible conclusion would not result from your "strange" feelings? While I don't at all find it "strange" I don't give a damn I did find it strange. Their son is dead. What is it that is so hard to get about that? The photo created a false impression. Life's a bitch. We don't need to figure out irrelevant minutiae of the case. Like I said, even if they consciously chose to mislead, so what?

 

[Checkmite]

Perhaps you should read the entire conversation. No aspersions were being cast at the Martins, the poster that was a response to claimed they picked a photo that showed TM as being "well-kempt and good-looking" my inquiry was to determine why they didn't pick a newer one of him that showed him as being "well-kempt and good-looking." I know that when I was 17 my mother had photos of me at 17, and I hated having my photo taken, and we had to do all with film camera, not digital like we have today. I find it strange that they would not have had a more recent image that would have worked just as well. I'm not saying that they did it deliberately to fool people, I'm just curious as to why the older photo was used.

Because they didn't have a newer one?

My grandmother has a photo on her wall of me at 11 in my little league getup; the only other photos of me that she has of any kind are packed away in albums in storage boxes. There are no single photos in existence of me between 13 and 18 because I never brought the school photo ordering packets home.

 

[johnny karate]

As is often said in cop shows... innocent people don't run.

I think I'm beginning to see the problem. You and Zimmerman apparently watch the same cop shows.

 

[RandFan]

...thus it would be interesting to know why it was selected.

Give us some possible options.

Ity appears you are uninterested in learning why.

Because we can't know what was in their heads and it won't illuminate anything about why TM is dead.

 

[RandFan]

As is often said in cop shows... innocent people don't run.

Do you have evidence that TM ran? Yes or No?

 

[RandFan]

As is often said in cop shows... innocent people don't run.

I think I'm beginning to see the problem. You and Zimmerman apparently watch the same cop shows.

Perhaps also a shared interest in seeing evil in people who have not committed a crime.

 

[Dcdrac]

No matter what an innocent is dead, someone who was merely gunned down becasue someone else thoguht he was suspicious and ratcheted up the situation instead of using their common snesne net result an innocent person hass been killed by someone who patently is unfit to carry out a policing role and should not be let near firearms.

In the UK we call this manslaugther, I do not beleiive Zimmeramn set out to murder but has committed manslaughter.