Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[triforcharity]

Because you haven't explained where he is lost for two minutes, so that he wasn't headed home, and GZ couldn't see him, and he was in a position to be found shortly after GZ hung up the phone with 911.

Laying on the ground, knocked the **** out?

Running in circles, trying to find his way?

Holy *** man, it's like dealing with a CT'ist.

We also don't know when Zimmerman got sight of him again, so your speculation is as useless as a screen door on a submarine....

 

[Checkmite]

We have no idea what the follow-up investigation revealed. How is the affidavit therefore a "joke"?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Yeah, I didn't understand that either.

Does this help ?

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/harvard-...arrest-affidavit-irresponsible-and-unethical/

“Most affidavits of probable cause are very thin. This is so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge,” Dershowitz said. “There’s simply nothing in there that would justify second degree murder.”

Dershowitz said that the elements that would constitute that crime are non-existent in the affidavit. “It’s not only thin, it’s irresponsible,” said Dershowitz.

 

[crimresearch]

Someone tell me that affidavit is fake or a joke. It can't possibly be the real thing.

What do you find remarkable about it?

 

[LTC8K6]

We have no idea what the follow-up investigation revealed. How is the affidavit therefore a "joke"?

I'm assuming the hope is for a plea.

I can't believe this is a serious affidavit, or that this case is going anywhere.

But I've been way off before.

 

[triforcharity]

Someone tell me that affidavit is fake or a joke. It can't possibly be the real thing.

What's so shocking about it? Seems like a reasonable, accurate summary of the charges. You do realize that the evidence isn't actually in that report, right? That it is just a stating of charges.

 

[Drs_Res]

The thing I'd like to know, and probably never will, is why didn't TM call 911?

 

[LTC8K6]

What do you find remarkable about it?

It's weakness and bias.

Anyway, I guess I will have to wait until 5/29 for the punchline.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Some questions and key issues at trial:

1. Obviously a thorough autopsy should have been done on TM. Does anyone know what the likelihood of bruising is on the knuckles is if you've been hitting someone repeatedly as GZ claims was the case? If TM does not have bruises does it suggest GZ was lying? If he does, I'd assume it will bolster GZ's case.

2. It's really tough to know what to make out of all these ridiculous 911 calls he seemed to make. Seems like this guy was Mr. Paranoid or maybe has a personalty issue of some type, fantasizes he's a police officer or something. I know some have said it was only 46 calls during 7 years or something like that, but that's still a lot of calls. From what I'm reading, looks like he has a history of being convinced that anyone he did not recognize was "suspicious".

3. I wonder if the police (ostensibly) not doing anything with the cell phone for a week or however long it was says anything about the rest of their investigation. I mean, isn't one of the FIRST things you're going to do is see if there were any calls on that phone and talk to those people immediately while the discussions are still fresh in their mind and before the possibility of their testimony being polluted?

4. I still think a huge amount of this is going to come down to those screams. If he can provide a convincing argument those were his, murder 2 is toast and I think even manslaughter may be difficult to get a conviction on. Seems to me if those are his screams he should be able to do a (recorded) reenactment that shows there's a good possibility that's the case??

5. Does FL have any laws about the racial makeup of juries? That is has to be "representative" and what would that mean?

I gotta admit to being addicted to this case, it's been years since I've wanted to watch a court case. Even if it was legit self-defense I hope it does not get thrown out with that stand your ground clause, I want to be able to DVR this . Just kidding.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Laying on the ground, knocked the **** out?

Evidence of injury that would have knocked hiom out for two minutes?

Running in circles, trying to find his way?

Running circles around what? A tree, have you looked at the map? There is one path to follow, it goes directly from the place TM turned south to the house he was staying, there is no path leaving it between those two points. To be "Running in circles, trying to find his way" he'd have had to be running in circle around the single path he was on.

Holy *** man, it's like dealing with a CT'ist.

yes, dealing with your speculation that doesn't conform to reality is exactly like that.

We also don't know when Zimmerman got sight of him again, so your speculation is as useless as a screen door on a submarine....

We do know that it had to occur on the path the confrontation did though, and at least the speculation that he stopped or turned back to confront the guy following him makes a heap more sense than your speculation.

 

[curi0us]

You object to the photos the Martin family supplied to the media of their dead son? Really?

It was supplied by the Martin's family's public relations representative and undated on purpose and worked exactly as intended. Well managed PR really.
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...-of-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-deceptive
^That article also has the Martin family attorney saying Trayvon was 140lbs. How many mistakes can they make before you notice a pattern?

I'd say it's pretty damn cynical if you attribute that to some kind dishonest ulterior motive as opposed to just wishing to have the photos published of their dead child be ones they most favor.

My cycnism is born from experience.

I could give a long series of related incidents to the propaganda game we are seeing now. Do you honestly not recall seeing something like this in the media before? I was at one of the colleges where Mumia Abu Jamal gave multiple graduation commencement speeches. Do you know his story at all?

And who exactly in the media has been referring to Trayvon as a "little boy"?

I just quoted Cutcher as saying exactly that and it was previously posted in this thread. Are you actually following the topic?

Here is a fuller quote and link:

“I heard the crying, it was a little boy. As soon as the gun went off, the crying stopped,” said Cutcher.
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/03/1...led-in-central-florida-calling-for-fbi-probe/
^From March 16, notice the same PR picture of the overly young Martin with no mention of a date it was taken. Also notice how Cutcher is saying it was murder not self defense because the screams came from a "little boy".

A source, I notice, you conveniently didn't provide.

Did you think I was lying?

“He got a bag of skittles, iced tea, his phone and $22 in his pocket. What kind of harm would he do to a 28-year-old, 250 pound man with that [a gun] in his pocket,” Martin said.

For Martin’s mother, one of the 911 calls released by police resounds in her head. On the recording, a voice can be heard crying for help prior to the sound of a gunshot.

“There’s no question that was my baby’s voice. He was saying, ‘Help, Help me,” Fulton said through tears.
http://insidedateline.msnbc.msn.com...s-parents-say-he-was-headed-on-the-right-path

But god forbid a grieving father overestimate the weight and size of the man who shot his son to death. What an opportunistic monster!

If the father says Zimmerman was 60lbs heavier then he was, his lawyer says Martin was 30lbs lighter then he was, the PR team releases an overly young photo while the mother insists it was Martin screaming, and then they get Cutcher to do press conference where she says knows that the one screaming was the "little boy" then maybe there is pattern worth noting there.

I don't know. Maybe it's when people are grief-stricken over the shooting death of their child, they might not always be coherent in their thinking.

Absolutely. I am inclined to give the parents a lot of emotional leeway, but too many people have just assumed that being fair meant taking their side. That's not the parents fault though, I get why they are acting as they do. But what's your excuse?

Or maybe what you're implying is true. Maybe the Martin family - those horrible people who dared try to get justice for their dead son - are just soulless, craven socipaths out to destroy poor, innocent George Zimmerman.

What does the "justice" the parents seek look like if Zimmerman is actually "innocent"?

Maybe the parents are in an emotionally complex situation of not wanting to believe that their son was more of a thug then they realized . . . wouldn't that set a process in motion where they actually do try to destroy an innocent man?

Then again, maybe you should back off from being so judgmental about people who are mourning the death of their child.

Maybe you should back off defending the lynch mob mentality.

 

[sgtbaker]

I think it's unbelievably weak. There's no way they believe it, imo.

I don't disagree that based on what we know, there is a lot of presumption. She also states at the bottom that those are not all the "pertinent facts and evidence in this case." I don't fully know the process between now and the court case but I think this is just to establish what the prosecution thinks they can prove.

 

[triforcharity]

I have a random question that I hope someone can clarify. I don't own a gun nor have I taken any self defense courses but my understanding is that law enforcement and private citizens(in self defense courses) are trained that if they do decide to shoot, ALWAYS shoot to kill and never to injure. Is this understanding correct? (This has nothing to do with stand your ground by the way)

This is absolutely correct. I would NEVER shoot someone with the intention of injuring them. I ALWAYS shoot to stop a threat. A shot to the leg is not stopping a threat. In fact, it could aggravate the person. If I shoot someone in the chest, it's going to 99% of the time, stop the threat.

Me personally, I am shooting more than once. Maybe even 3-4 times.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

The thing I'd like to know, and probably never will, is why didn't TM call 911?

Seriously ? I would like to know why he did not run home, that is what I think most 17-year olds would do. But I don't find a young black make not calling 911 to be unusual, not to mention this is a kid who was on suspension from for marijuana at school. I doubt he saw police officers or authority figures as the person he's going to go to in need.

 

[johnny karate]

Why stop and stand still for two minutes, that would be wanting the scary guy to catch up, why do that unless you wanted to confront him for following you?

He could have been waiting to see if the coast was clear before continuing on his way. He could have taken an indirect route in an effort to lose Zimmerman before arriving at the scene of the altercation. Let's not pretend two minutes is some excruciatingly long period of time.

Except the map makes this highly unlikely. Once he turned south all he had to do was keep going until he reached the house he was going to. There weren't other any paths he could have turned off on and gotten lost by taking, even ion the dark and rain.

That you dismiss the idea that Martin might have gotten lost does not mean that Martin didn't get lost. It was dark and raining. He was in a strange neighborhood. He could have gotten turned around and lost his bearings.

 

[sgtbaker]

What does the "justice" the parents seek look like if Zimmerman is actually "innocent"?

In defense of the mother, she said on the Today show, this morning that she would accept it as justice if Zimmerman was found not guilty. She seriously seems to feel like the law just cast this one off and just wanted to feel like he was held accountable. I don't blame her. I don't know how I would feel if I were in her shoes. I know you don't blame her, either. I just wanted to chime in and let you know that she answered for that possibility.

 

[triforcharity]

Evidence of injury that would have knocked hiom out for two minutes?

None. Evidence that Zimmerman was on the map as indicated? None. This is a useless conversation. It matters absolutely none.

Running circles around what? A tree, have you looked at the map?

Sure. Did you see the other buildings? There's lots of them. Maybe he took a path between two buildings to evade this unknown person following him? I've done it when I was younger.

There is one path to follow, it goes directly from the place TM turned south to the house he was staying, there is no path leaving it between those two points. To be "Running in circles, trying to find his way" he'd have had to be running in circle around the single path he was on.

Right, because there is NO WAY IN HELL he would have gone between two buildings......

yes, dealing with your speculation that doesn't conform to reality is exactly like that.

Reality? Horse ****. This entire exercise is speculation, since we DON'T know where Zimmerman lost him exactly, and we DON'T know what path Zimmerman took. We know diddly **** all. So, wanna keep running?

We do know that it had to occur on the path the confrontation did though, and at least the speculation that he stopped or turned back to confront the guy following him makes a heap more sense than your speculation.

Right, because we know exactly where Zimmerman and Martin were, and we have a **** ton of evidence of....Oh **** Jesus on a corn dog! We don't know.....That's right.

This ENTIRE line of discussion is like going to a whore house for a hug. Useless. Stupid. Assinine. Screen door on a submarine.

As an aside. Go jog/run head first into a tree because you're panicked and looking away. Tell me what happens.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Laying on the ground, knocked the **** out?

Running in circles, trying to find his way?

Holy *** man, it's like dealing with a CT'ist.

You honestly think TM knocked himself out by hitting a tree, or simply ran around in circles. And then you call me a conspiracy theorist.

We also don't know when Zimmerman got sight of him again, so your speculation is as useless as a screen door on a submarine....

Because we don't know that, it makes the entire exercise useless ?
I disagree.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Someone tell me that affidavit is fake or a joke. It can't possibly be the real thing.

I just read it, I agree it's amazing. I would have assumed an affidavit is supposed to be strictly factual and present a narrative for why the person is being arrested. That reads more like a press story, and one that a good defense attorney is going to be all over.

I think I figured it out!!!

1. She WANTS GZ to get off and knows there is no evidence to convict! But she couldn't not charge him because the pressure was too high. So she's putting forth a presentation she knows will be torn apart.

2. Johnny Karate wrote it.

Those are me two theories . And at the moment I'm trying to decide if 1 might not be that far out there.

 

[johnny karate]

It's weakness and bias.

That makes no sense. The prosecution isn't making their case in the affidavit, so weakness or strength don't factor in.

And bias? Of course it's biased. It's an affidavit from the prosecution. These are the people who think Zimmerman is guilty. They have no obligation to be impartial.