Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[TheL8Elvis]

Martin sees Zimmerman watching him and then get out of his car and come towards him.

Martin runs away.

Zimmerman chases him.

Martin loses sight of Zimmerman. But it's dark and raining, and he's in an unfamiliar neighborhood, so now he's lost.

Zimmerman - who knows the neighborhood much better - is able to find Martin again.

The altercation ensues.

I'm not sure why you would think that is so wildly implausible.

Because you haven't explained where he is lost for two minutes, so that he wasn't headed home, and GZ couldn't see him, and he was in a position to be found shortly after GZ hung up the phone with 911.

 

[johnny karate]

Well, JK said "strikes me as significantly less probable" ... so he obviously finds one action more probable than the other.

Yes, I find it more probable that the activity we know was occurring (i.e. Zimmerman chasing Martin while Martin ran away) continued, as opposed to the exact opposite of that suddenly occurring (i.e. Zimmerman stops chasing Martin, and Martin decides to turn around and attack Zimmerman).

If you actually went through the map and the 911 call ....

1) where did TM stop and just wait for 2 minutes, while being scared of being followed by a scary guy ?
2) when on the 911 call did you hear zimmerman call out to TM ?
3) there is the way he went in, the way zimmerman went, and the way home. I'm not sure where getting lost fits into those options
4) trips or hits a tree and is stunned for 2 minutes, and hidden from GZ view. Yes, that sounds like a joke to me.

None of those things make any sense in the context of the 911 call and the map, nor did you try to make them make any sense.

One of the recurring themes in this thread is how none of us should be playing junior detective with what scraps of information we have that may or may not be accurate.

If you want to pretend you can know anything conclusive by matching up the 911 call to the maps provided in various news reports, that's your prerogative. I personally don't find it to be very compelling evidence.

 

[johnny karate]

Because you haven't explained where he is lost for two minutes, so that he wasn't headed home, and GZ couldn't see him, and he was in a position to be found shortly after GZ hung up the phone with 911.

And you haven't provided any compelling reason why I should have to account for these alleged discrepancies.

What you deem to be evidence I don't find particularly convincing. We'll see what the actual evidence is soon enough.

 

[Giz]

I have a random question that I hope someone can clarify. I don't own a gun nor have I taken any self defense courses but my understanding is that law enforcement and private citizens(in self defense courses) are trained that if they do decide to shoot, ALWAYS shoot to kill and never to injure. Is this understanding correct? (This has nothing to do with stand your ground by the way)

My understanding is:

1) LEGALLY: that you are only entitled to fire the gun when deadly force is necessary to protect yourself. Using less than deadly force (i.e. the shoot to wound/incapacitate idea) might make it seem as if the situation wasn't serious enough to justify the use of deadly force.

2) PRACTICAL: Handguns are not the Dirty Harry-esque always accurate, always effective handcannons that Hollywood depicts. It's hard enough to hit a center of mass target when under stress without trying to hit an extremity... and peripheral shots may not stop a determined attacker.

 

[Cylinder]

I have a random question that I hope someone can clarify. I don't own a gun nor have I taken any self defense courses but my understanding is that law enforcement and private citizens(in self defense courses) are trained that if they do decide to shoot, ALWAYS shoot to kill and never to injure. Is this understanding correct? (This has nothing to do with stand your ground by the way)

Without question. If "shoot to injure" comes to mind, you are probably in a ton of trouble if you shoot at all. This crap about shooting the gun out of the hand is stuff for Holywood and police snipers. Shooting someone in the arm or leg is as likely as not to cause death at self-defense ranges.

 

[johnny karate]

If Martin had really been "running" away from him, there is no way that Zimmerman would have caught him, Martin was way fitter and and lighter and had a head start, he could have easily left GZ in his dust.

Yes, if he had run directly home in a dead sprint. But multiple alternatives to that scenario have already been presented.

 

[lionking]

I have a random question that I hope someone can clarify. I don't own a gun nor have I taken any self defense courses but my understanding is that law enforcement and private citizens(in self defense courses) are trained that if they do decide to shoot, ALWAYS shoot to kill and never to injure. Is this understanding correct? (This has nothing to do with stand your ground by the way)

I can't speak generally, but can confirm that police in Australia are trained to fire at the torso, where death is often the outcome. They don't shoot to kill, but they definitely don't shoot at the arm or leg. Any advocate for shooting to wound is an idiot.

 

[LTC8K6]

Someone tell me that affidavit is fake or a joke. It can't possibly be the real thing.

 

[triforcharity]

I don't find it probable TM got lost.
There are 2 directions for him to go when he walks down the sidewalk towards his fathers fiances house. East and South. South is home. GZ went east and didn't see him. Did he accidentally go north and run into someone else back patio ?

As for the tree ... he hit the tree ... and then .. what ? Stood there hidden behind a 3 inch tree as GZ walked past him on the phone, then back past him again ?

Forgive me if you've already explained this, but how do you know that is the factual paths? Is it based on what you think or something else. Oh, and go try running through a neighborhood you don't know well at full speed while someones chasing you and tell me you'll keep your wits. You're foolish if you assume you will. Then run into a tree too and tell me you'd hop right back up. I'll laugh in your face.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

And you haven't provided any compelling reason why I should have to account for these alleged discrepancies.

You claim you find action a probable. We have a known time frame (the 911 call) and a map. I simply asked you to make the claim make sense in light of those two known pieces of information.

I certainly can't compel you to do anything, it's pretty much up to you actually think critically based on the facts.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Forgive me if you've already explained this, but how do you know that is the factual paths? Is it based on what you think or something else. Oh, and go try running through a neighborhood you don't know well at full speed while someones chasing you and tell me you'll keep your wits. You're foolish if you assume you will. Then run into a tree too and tell me you'd hop right back up. I'll laugh in your face.

I don't know those are the factual paths. It's inferred. I haven't seen anyone claim they are anything markedly different. I grant you, it could be totally wrong. I don't think so, but it's not impossible.

I don't know where we have any indication that TM was running anywhere at full speed ? According to the girlfriend, he said he wasn't going to run.

I assume you have seen the videos, etc. You really think the most plausible story is he ran into one of the 2 or 3 scrawny little trees, and was hidden from view while GZ was trying to follow him ?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Someone tell me that affidavit is fake or a joke. It can't possibly be the real thing.

Do you have a link? I saw you mention it twice, but all I can find mentioning it is this article from a page back. But no affidavit.

http://www.ctnow.com/news/nationwor...-charged-jail-20120412,0,7598410.story?page=1

 

[sgtbaker]

Do you have a link? I saw you mention it twice, but all I can find mentioning it is this article from a page back. But no affidavit.

http://www.ctnow.com/news/nationwor...-charged-jail-20120412,0,7598410.story?page=1

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-04/69353440.pdf

If that doesn't work, here is the article that has a link to the pdf
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...d-degree-murder-trayvon-martin-143832017.html

 

[PhantomWolf]

1) Stopping. Not heading back towards Zimmerman, just stopping. He might be thinking, "Hey, why am I running from this dude?"

Why stop and stand still for two minutes, that would be wanting the scary guy to catch up, why do that unless you wanted to confront him for following you?

2) Zimmerman yells out something which Martin hears but doesn't understand so he turns around to see what's up.

This suffers the same issue that he had 2 minutes to get clear of Zimmerman and was out of shouting range. What kept him there for those two minutes so that he would be within shouting range?

3) Gets lost (already mentioned)

Except the map makes this highly unlikely. Once he turned south all he had to do was keep going until he reached the house he was going to. There weren't other any paths he could have turned off on and gotten lost by taking, even ion the dark and rain.

4) Trips or hits something (already mentioned).

Any trip or collision with something hard enough to have stopped him for two minutes would have left marks. We already know from the autopsy that there were no obvious marks on him, thus it would be inconsistant with a trip or collision occuring.

There's no reason for you to call #3 and #4 "joking". They are "plausible". Nobody can assert probability with any degree of credibility so I'm not even sure how that part of the request even makes sense.

No they aren't plausible given the other information provided.

 

[sgtbaker]

Someone tell me that affidavit is fake or a joke. It can't possibly be the real thing.

I don't see why you think it's a joke. They believe the account that favors Martin and condemns Zimmerman. If they didn't they probably wouldn't be prosecuting. She said there will be evidence at the trial. We can only wait.

 

[RandFan]

Someone tell me that affidavit is fake or a joke. It can't possibly be the real thing.

I don't see why you think it's a joke. They believe the account that favors Martin and condemns Zimmerman. If they didn't they probably wouldn't be prosecuting. She said there will be evidence at the trial. We can only wait.

Yeah, I didn't understand that either.

 

[johnny karate]

You claim you find action a probable. We have a known time frame (the 911 call) and a map. I simply asked you to make the claim make sense in light of those two known pieces of information.

No, you asked me make the claim make sense to you. I'm not sure that would be possible. I don't see a problem in reconciling the timetable with the map and coming up with possibilities other than Martin suddenly reversing course and attacking Zimmerman.

I certainly can't compel you to do anything, it's pretty much up to you actually think critically based on the facts.

That you deem something a "fact" does not necessarily make it so.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Yes, if he had run directly home in a dead sprint. But multiple alternatives to that scenario have already been presented.

Alternative that make zero sense and have zero evidence.

From the intersection of the paths TM could have gone two way and only two ways. GZ went East, the other option was south, which lead directly to TM's destination. The only ways to "get lost" would have been to head East, but that would have resulted in GZ finding him in a different place, or in TM deciding that he was going the wrong way, and doubling back towards GZ. There is no other option as there is no other direction to go to get lost.

The idea that he stopped and stood stil in the cold and rain is laughable, unless he decided to stop and wait for GZ, and as for the whole, tripped hit something, we already know he wasn't injuried, and to delay him by 2 minutes, he would have had to have been injured.

So it comes back to what did he do for the two minutes he was out of GZ's sight? Two minutes he could have easily returned home in given the distance, he could have easily walked that distance and back.

In the end it's clear he either stopped and waited, or turned back, either to find GZ or because he thought he was heading the wrong way, but either way, he turned back towards someone he thought was following him. Nothing else makes any sense no matter how you try and spin it.

 

[crimresearch]

I have a random question that I hope someone can clarify. I don't own a gun nor have I taken any self defense courses but my understanding is that law enforcement and private citizens(in self defense courses) are trained that if they do decide to shoot, ALWAYS shoot to kill and never to injure. Is this understanding correct? (This has nothing to do with stand your ground by the way)

That is pretty much what should *never* be taught.
Instead of shooting to kill, or shooting to wound, the standard is shooting to the center of the largest exposed part of the target. The buzz word for that is 'center mass'.

That increases the chances of stopping the threat, that compensates for physiological effects in a crisis situation, and it may reduce the chances of stray rounds hitting someone else.

 

[LTC8K6]

I don't see why you think it's a joke. They believe the account that favors Martin and condemns Zimmerman. If they didn't they probably wouldn't be prosecuting. She said there will be evidence at the trial. We can only wait.

I think it's unbelievably weak. There's no way they believe it, imo.