The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

[dafydd]

That's good. One shouldn't repeat bad arguments.

Jokes are never so funny the second time you hear them.

 

[kerikiwi]

Here is Mark 13: 29,30 by Young's Literal Translation which is the literal translation of the original Greek:

"so ye, also, when these ye may see coming to pass, ye know that it is nigh, at the doors.

Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;"

Notice the literal translation "may" in both verses.

So, it may be a prophecy, but then again it may not. It may come true, but then again it may not. It may have come true, but then again it may not.
I may go out and do something useful on the property, but then again I may not.

Is that how it works?

 

[kerikiwi]

However, throughout the New Testament, Jesus talks about the impending end. Whenever he says "the time is at hand, he does not use the regular Greek word for "time," chronos; rather, he uses kairos, meaning a special, appointed time.

Jesus spoke Greek?

 

[dafydd]

So, it may be a prophecy, but then again it may not. It may come true, but then again it may not. It may have come true, but then again it may not.
I may go out and do something useful on the property, but then again I may not.

Is that how it works?

Yes, that is biblical logic. Nothing to do with the real world, of course.

 

[dafydd]

Jesus spoke Greek?

Nobody has a clue what Jesus said, the gospels were written long after his death.

 

[RoboTimbo]

So Christ could be saying this Jewish race shall not pass away until the end of the world.

What are the incredible odds of a race going extinct when the world ends?

 

[ddt]

Here is Mark 13: 29,30 by Young's Literal Translation which is the literal translation of the original Greek:

"so ye, also, when these ye may see coming to pass, ye know that it is nigh, at the doors.

Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;"

Notice the literal translation "may" in both verses.

There's nothing much "literal" about that. The Greek uses a subjunctive in both cases because the conjunction used demands that.

And there's not much sense in predicting things that might come true. The big J might as well say that it may rain tomorrow. Or not.

On another note, Norman Geisler points out that the Greek word for "generation" can also be translated as race. So Christ could be saying this Jewish race shall not pass away until the end of the world.

My Greek -> Dutch dictionary says indeed that γενεὰ could be translated by "race". However, that use is only attested with Homer, and only for use with animals. FYI, Homer is about the oldest Greek we have on record, approx. 800 years before the NT was written.

So, epic fail. Or is this latent antisemitism with Geisler, equating Jews with animals?

 

[dafydd]

What are the incredible odds of a race going extinct when the world ends?

The world will end when the Sun becomes a red giant and engulfs the Earth. No mention of that in the bible.

 

[Lucian]

There's nothing much "literal" about that. The Greek uses a subjunctive in both cases because the conjunction used demands that.

And there's not much sense in predicting things that might come true. The big J might as well say that it may rain tomorrow. Or not.


My Greek -> Dutch dictionary says indeed that γενεὰ could be translated by "race". However, that use is only attested with Homer, and only for use with animals. FYI, Homer is about the oldest Greek we have on record, approx. 800 years before the NT was written.

So, epic fail. Or is this latent antisemitism with Geisler, equating Jews with animals?

Oh, I'm glad you said that. I know nothing about Greek in any of its forms, but I was going to guess that was an attempt to translate the subjunctive.

I'd like to point out, in general terms, why it can be problematic (or impossible) to translate verb tenses absolutely literally. In modern English, it is the convention to use the literary present ("In his famous soliloquoy, Hamlet says..."). The French, as I recall, use the historical present. Since that sounds weird in English, we translate it as the past tense. Old Norse sagas have a tendency to shift from past tense to present and back. Since that is confusing in English, translations usually stick to the past tense.

In modern English, the subjunctive mood is just barely hanging on by its fingernails. In other languages, it is used extensively and for a variety of purposes. Some uses of the subjunctive are idiomatic and don't really translate well or at all to English.

 

[DOC]

Here is Mark 13: 29,30 by Young's Literal Translation which is the literal translation of the original Greek:

"so ye, also, when these ye may see coming to pass, ye know that it is nigh, at the doors.

Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;"

Notice the literal translation "may" in both verses.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 13&version=YLT

Here is information on Young's Literal translation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young's_Literal_Translation

________

On another note, Norman Geisler points out that the Greek word for "generation" can also be translated as race. So Christ could be saying this Jewish race shall not pass away until the end of the world.

And there's not much sense in predicting things that might come true. The big J might as well say that it may rain tomorrow. Or not.

Hopeless. Fail. Do not pass Go, do not collect 200 pounds.

Christ did say no man, including himself, knows the day or the hour of the end of the world. The "may" wording is consistent with Christ's statement that no one knows the time. But he also warned to stay vigilant because it will come like a thief in the night.

 

[ddt]

Oh, I'm glad you said that. I know nothing about Greek in any of its forms, but I was going to guess that was an attempt to translate the subjunctive.

You're welcome!

I'd like to point out, in general terms, why it can be problematic (or impossible) to translate verb tenses absolutely literally. In modern English, it is the convention to use the literary present ("In his famous soliloquoy, Hamlet says..."). The French, as I recall, use the historical present. Since that sounds weird in English, we translate it as the past tense. Old Norse sagas have a tendency to shift from past tense to present and back. Since that is confusing in English, translations usually stick to the past tense.

The Greek here uses the aorist. Good luck with translating that one "literally". (and let's also not forget aspect here too). However, the conjunctions used here - "when" and "until" clearly express that JC is speaking of things that will happen in the (near) future.

In modern English, the subjunctive mood is just barely hanging on by its fingernails.

God save the Queen subjunctive!

In other languages, it is used extensively and for a variety of purposes. Some uses of the subjunctive are idiomatic and don't really translate well or at all to English.

For instance, in German the subjunctive is always used in indirect speech. However, in many cases it's not apparent as most forms with (weak) German verbs coincide with that of the indicative.

 

[dafydd]

Christ did say no man, including himself, knows the day or the hour of the end of the world. The "may" wording is consistent with Christ's statement that no one knows the time. But he also warned to stay vigilant because it will come like a thief in the night.

The bible says soon,Doc. Which part of that sentence do you not understand? I've had more productive discussions with a brick wall. The world will end when the Sun becomes a red giant. Some disaster might wipe us out but the world will still be here.

 

[ddt]

Christ did say no man, including himself, knows the day or the hour of the end of the world. The "may" wording is consistent with Christ's statement that no one knows the time. But he also warned to stay vigilant because it will come like a thief in the night.

The whole chapter is about Jesus predicting the end of times. He's not giving that speech to say "well, it's possible the end of the world will come", no, he is predicting it will come, and in the lifetime of his audience.

And that he says no one knows the time but the Father is not in contradiction to that: see the unexpected hanging paradox.

 

[Mudcat]

Which verse in Revelation says "All these things shall soon come to pass" and what translation are you using.

That would be Revelation 1:1, which says "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

Slightly different wording from what I remembered but in essence the same thing.

Oh, and it didn't "shortly come to pass" so it's a failed prophecy.

 

[dafydd]

That would be Revelation 1:1, which says "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

Slightly different wording from what I remembered but in essence the same thing.

Oh, and it didn't "shortly come to pass" so it's a failed prophecy.

It's the biblical and Doc's ''shortly''. Doc has his own definitions of common words.

 

[Mudcat]

It's the biblical and Doc's ''shortly''. Doc has his own definitions of common words.

So I've noticed. It's something he shares with biblical literalists I have known including a friend of mine. I'm sorry but special pleading is just wrong.

 

[joobz]

Christ did say no man, including himself, knows the day or the hour of the end of the world. The "may" wording is consistent with Christ's statement that no one knows the time. But he also warned to stay vigilant because it will come like a thief in the night.

I'm curious. You had us wait to "teach us" about the book of revelation. But now are saying that the entire book may or may not happen.

So what was the point?

 

[tsig]

I doubt your doubt.

How about another category in the poll: I have heard the gospel and rejected it?
I'll go first.

Just 999,999,999 to go for the first billion!

Yep.

 

[tsig]

When can I expect the stars to fall on me?

You had to attend West Point, class of 1915.

"The class the stars fell on" is an expression used to describe the United States Military Academy class of 1915.[1] In the U.S. Army, the insignia reserved for generals is one or more stars. Of the 164 graduates that year, 59 (36%) attained the rank of general, the most of any class in the history of the United States Military Academy .


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_class_the_stars_fell_on

 

[dafydd]

I'm curious. You had us wait to "teach us" about the book of revelation. But now are saying that the entire book may or may not happen.

So what was the point?

I spent some time this evening rereading Revelation. It is a farrago of insane nonsense, written buy a guy who probably was not allowed out on his own.