The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

DOC said:
You still haven't explained what you exactly mean by "it".
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What do you think we have been talking about?
Here's a great answer.

TimCallahan said:
Of course, the thousand year reign comes at the end of all the horrors predicted in Revelation; after the four horsemen of the apocalypse have gone out to wreak destruction, after the star Wormwood has fallen into the sea, after most of the human race has been annihilated, and so on. It also takes place after the seven years of tribulation, the reign of the Beast, people being forced to take the mark of the Beast, etc.

Thus, that which must take place "soon" doesn't conflict with the millennial kingdom. The setting up of that kingdom would have been only seven years or so down the road from when John of Patmos penned his revelation.

This fits with the prediction Jesus supposedly gave in the "Little Apocalypse," also called the "Olivet Discourse" (Mark 13:30):

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things be done.

"All these things" include the sun and moon being darkened, stars falling from the sky, the Son of man appearing in the clouds and the angels gathering in the elect (Mk. 13:24 - 27). The usual dodge Christian apologists resort to this is brought up is to assert that "generation" (Gr. genaea) actually should be read as "people" (Gr. genos). Thus, this people," i.e. the Jews, will not pass away until these things happen. In other words, the only way to make the Bible prophecy "true" is to make the Bible not say what it actually says.
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Doc, why do you take seriously the ramblings of a man who obviously wrote Revelation under the influence of some powerful hallucinogenic? Either that or he was just plain crazy.
 
joobz said:
As evidenced earlier, DOC has a hard time with pronouns. He needs to believe they are ambiguous in order to support his belief systems.
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Has anyone ever actually seen DOC and Bill Clinton in the same place at the same time?

I mean, is the following not "DOC-worthy"?

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true."

Spooky, eh?
 
DOC said:
It doesn't say will start soon, it says will come to pass soon. A thousand year reign can not come to pass soon so this implies the come to pass shortly applies to other things such such as things John wrote will happen to the 7 churches he immediately started to talk about.
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You haven't read my #1862, have you? Please do so, and tell me why I am mistaken. I have said that a thousand year reign can "come to pass" soon. Refute me if you want to go on saying it can't.

The best treatment of Revelation by any commentator may be found here, along with a similar take on other books of the Bible. http://www.bricktestament.com/
 
DOC said:
It doesn't say will start soon, it says will come to pass soon. A thousand year reign can not come to pass soon so this implies the come to pass shortly applies to other things such such as things John wrote will happen to the 7 churches he immediately started to talk about.
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Even if we were to allow this goal post to be shifted unchallenged those things never came to pass for the 7 Churches. However "All these things shall soon come to pass" seems pretty straight-forward to me.

DOC said:
Plus the fact Christ said go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
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Sure. Why don't you try sharing the gospel with a hungry gator and report back to us how interested they are in hearing it?

DOC said:
There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel.
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[sarcasm]Oh gee if only someone would invent a magical communications tool that connect billions of living breathing humans together so they could share thoughts and ideas over vast distances even in third world countries like the Internet does.[/sarcasm]


DOC said:
And the official recognized bible of the church was not determined until 398 A.D. at the Council of Carthage by hundreds of bishops. This is about 300 years after John wrote Revelation. Those bishops could have simply dropped Revelation from the bible if they were concerned about the "come to pass shortly" wording written 300 years earlier. They must have not been that concerned because the many bishops chose to include Revelation as part of the official cannon of the Church.
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't Revelation almost didn't make it into the Bible?
 
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Mudcat said:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't Revelation almost didn't make it into the Bible?
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Eastern Orthodoxy appears to have been reluctant to accept Revelation. It was finally defined as part of the Eastern canon at the Synod of Jerusalem in 1672. However, it is not present in the Orthodox lectionary, from which passages are read during church services. It is the only NT book omitted in this way.
 
We don't need to limit ourselves to Revelation 1 to find a soon or a shortly. Here's the NIV version of Chapter 22. What are these words supposed to mean, DOC, if not what they clearly say?
6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.” 7 “Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.” ... 12 “Look, I am coming soon! ... "
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And when you've explained that, please tell us how a prophecy of stars falling out of the sky can be reconciled with current knowledge of the sizes and distances of the stars.
 
DOC said:
Plus the fact Christ said go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel. There is an implication there that the end will not happen until every person alive has at least had a chance to hear the gospel.
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And if this is the case, since there are more people being born all the time, the prophecy can never be fulfilled.

Well done.
 
Mojo said:
And if this is the case, since there are more people being born all the time, the prophecy can never be fulfilled.

Well done.
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The population here in Belgium is increasing, religion is in decline so there are less people to preach the gospel nonsense so yes, the prophecy can never be fulfilled. Well done again Doc, you keep coming up with reasons why no prophecy has been fulfilled or ever will be fulfilled.
 
Mojo said:
And if this is the case, since there are more people being born all the time, the prophecy can never be fulfilled.

Well done.
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Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
 
DOC said:
Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
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So we can be sure that the end will never come. The gospel has been preached all over the world. You are so good at shooting yourself in the foot.
 
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DOC said:
Well actually Jesus telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is not a prophecy but this is:

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
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In other words, the book of revelation contradicts another book of the bible's prophecy.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
Has anyone ever actually seen DOC and Bill Clinton in the same place at the same time?

I mean, is the following not "DOC-worthy"?

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true."

Spooky, eh?
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in defense of Clinton, I actually understand what he was going for here. He was talking about whether the statement "There is nothing going on between me and ms lewinsky" could be truthful if he was not carrying on an affair with her at the time he said that, even if he had done so in the past. A dishonest thing to say, to be sure, but not as logic-chopping as it is made out.
 
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