Magnetic fields and Scale in keeping water heaters in good shape

[fuelair]

K and J magnetics, from whom I get my rather neat selection of Very Powerful Magnets in Quantity heard about the magnet scam for keeping your water heater clean of scale, found some papers and made a study on it. And even (love 'em for this) suggested a follow up next step for someone else to do as well as expressing healthy skepticism for the effectiveness even in the face of data showing some effects apparent when the experiments are not done on a working water heater (that not being their field of expertise. Results at: http://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=water-treatment
for the interested!!

 

[Goshawk]

K and J magnetics, from whom I get my rather neat selection of Very Powerful Magnets in Quantity heard about the magnet scam for keeping your water heater clean of scale, found some papers and made a study on it. And even (love 'em for this) suggested a follow up next step for someone else to do as well as expressing healthy skepticism for the effectiveness even in the face of data showing some effects apparent when the experiments are not done on a working water heater (that not being their field of expertise. Results at: http://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=water-treatment
for the interested!!

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't consider it "healthy skepticism" when I get to the end of their article and find, "What magnets should I use for Magnetic Water Treatment?" and then suggestions as to what size magnets you should buy from them in order to treat your water magnetically.

I also don't consider their tone overall to be "healthy skepticism", more like "cautious optimism", as in, "Did it work? Eh, it might have...And just in case it did work, here is our products list to help you, too, eliminate scale magnetically. Just in case it works, yanno."

Not as healthy skepticism would have put it, "Do you need our product?" but rather the more salesmanlike, "Choose which one of our products you need to treat your water magnetically."

IANA engineer or a chemist, but even I know that a real test of it would be quite simple to set up, and wouldn't require a water heater.

1. Get two identical lengths of pipe, in a hard water area.
2. Arrange to have water flowing through them.
3. Put magnets around one of the pipes.
4. Turn on the water and go away for, say, a week or two.
5. Come back, turn off the water, and cut the pipes in two, cross-section. See whether one of the pipes has less scale.

No water heater simulation, as they suggest, would be necessary at all. I'm interpreting their suggestion that someone set up a water heater simulation not as helpful, healthy skepticism, but as setting up an unrealistic and difficult-to-accomplish test protocol, on the assumption that nobody's going to go to such lengths, so they're safe in continuing to sell their magnets for pipe descaling.

ETA: It wouldn't have to be a long-term test, either; I would assume that with, like, scientific engineering calipers and suchlike precision instruments you'd be able to measure whether one pipe has more millimeters of scale on it after only a couple of weeks.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't consider it "healthy skepticism" when I get to the end of their article and find, "What magnets should I use for Magnetic Water Treatment?" and then suggestions as to what size magnets you should buy from them in order to treat your water magnetically.

I also don't consider their tone overall to be "healthy skepticism", more like "cautious optimism", as in, "Did it work? Eh, it might have...And just in case it did work, here is our products list to help you, too, eliminate scale magnetically. Just in case it works, yanno."

Not as healthy skepticism would have put it, "Do you need our product?" but rather the more salesmanlike, "Choose which one of our products you need to treat your water magnetically."

IANA engineer or a chemist, but even I know that a real test of it would be quite simple to set up, and wouldn't require a water heater.

1. Get two identical lengths of pipe, in a hard water area.
2. Arrange to have water flowing through them.
3. Put magnets around one of the pipes.
4. Turn on the water and go away for, say, a week or two.
5. Come back, turn off the water, and cut the pipes in two, cross-section. See whether one of the pipes has less scale.

No water heater simulation, as they suggest, would be necessary at all. I'm interpreting their suggestion that someone set up a water heater simulation not as helpful, healthy skepticism, but as setting up an unrealistic and difficult-to-accomplish test protocol, on the assumption that nobody's going to go to such lengths, so they're safe in continuing to sell their magnets for pipe descaling.

ETA: It wouldn't have to be a long-term test, either; I would assume that with, like, scientific engineering calipers and suchlike precision instruments you'd be able to measure whether one pipe has more millimeters of scale on it after only a couple of weeks.

Or just carefully weigh the pipes before and after.

 

[fuelair]

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't consider it "healthy skepticism" when I get to the end of their article and find, "What magnets should I use for Magnetic Water Treatment?" and then suggestions as to what size magnets you should buy from them in order to treat your water magnetically.

I also don't consider their tone overall to be "healthy skepticism", more like "cautious optimism", as in, "Did it work? Eh, it might have...And just in case it did work, here is our products list to help you, too, eliminate scale magnetically. Just in case it works, yanno."

Not as healthy skepticism would have put it, "Do you need our product?" but rather the more salesmanlike, "Choose which one of our products you need to treat your water magnetically."

IANA engineer or a chemist, but even I know that a real test of it would be quite simple to set up, and wouldn't require a water heater.

1. Get two identical lengths of pipe, in a hard water area.
2. Arrange to have water flowing through them.
3. Put magnets around one of the pipes.
4. Turn on the water and go away for, say, a week or two.
5. Come back, turn off the water, and cut the pipes in two, cross-section. See whether one of the pipes has less scale.

No water heater simulation, as they suggest, would be necessary at all. I'm interpreting their suggestion that someone set up a water heater simulation not as helpful, healthy skepticism, but as setting up an unrealistic and difficult-to-accomplish test protocol, on the assumption that nobody's going to go to such lengths, so they're safe in continuing to sell their magnets for pipe descaling.

ETA: It wouldn't have to be a long-term test, either; I would assume that with, like, scientific engineering calipers and suchlike precision instruments you'd be able to measure whether one pipe has more millimeters of scale on it after only a couple of weeks.

If you have no problem with it I will send your response to them as it seems well thought out! Please let me know if o.k. By the by, this is not their field, magnets and interesting things you can do with them is. I cut them some slack due to that.....and the fact that they were basing what they did on an actual scientific paper that was (I assume from it's source) peer reviewed.

 

[rwguinn]

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't consider it "healthy skepticism" when I get to the end of their article and find, "What magnets should I use for Magnetic Water Treatment?" and then suggestions as to what size magnets you should buy from them in order to treat your water magnetically.

I also don't consider their tone overall to be "healthy skepticism", more like "cautious optimism", as in, "Did it work? Eh, it might have...And just in case it did work, here is our products list to help you, too, eliminate scale magnetically. Just in case it works, yanno."

Not as healthy skepticism would have put it, "Do you need our product?" but rather the more salesmanlike, "Choose which one of our products you need to treat your water magnetically."

IANA engineer or a chemist, but even I know that a real test of it would be quite simple to set up, and wouldn't require a water heater.

1. Get two identical lengths of pipe, in a hard water area.
2. Arrange to have water flowing through them.
3. Put magnets around one of the pipes.
4. Turn on the water and go away for, say, a week or two.
5. Come back, turn off the water, and cut the pipes in two, cross-section. See whether one of the pipes has less scale.

No water heater simulation, as they suggest, would be necessary at all. I'm interpreting their suggestion that someone set up a water heater simulation not as helpful, healthy skepticism, but as setting up an unrealistic and difficult-to-accomplish test protocol, on the assumption that nobody's going to go to such lengths, so they're safe in continuing to sell their magnets for pipe descaling.

ETA: It wouldn't have to be a long-term test, either; I would assume that with, like, scientific engineering calipers and suchlike precision instruments you'd be able to measure whether one pipe has more millimeters of scale on it after only a couple of weeks.

If you actually read what they said, they are simply giving you the magnets to use to generate the 3000 Gauss field in various pipes.
If you want to do it, here's the data--that's all they say.

 

[CORed]

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't consider it "healthy skepticism" when I get to the end of their article and find, "What magnets should I use for Magnetic Water Treatment?" and then suggestions as to what size magnets you should buy from them in order to treat your water magnetically.

I also don't consider their tone overall to be "healthy skepticism", more like "cautious optimism", as in, "Did it work? Eh, it might have...And just in case it did work, here is our products list to help you, too, eliminate scale magnetically. Just in case it works, yanno."

Not as healthy skepticism would have put it, "Do you need our product?" but rather the more salesmanlike, "Choose which one of our products you need to treat your water magnetically."

IANA engineer or a chemist, but even I know that a real test of it would be quite simple to set up, and wouldn't require a water heater.

1. Get two identical lengths of pipe, in a hard water area.
2. Arrange to have water flowing through them.
3. Put magnets around one of the pipes.
4. Turn on the water and go away for, say, a week or two.
5. Come back, turn off the water, and cut the pipes in two, cross-section. See whether one of the pipes has less scale.

No water heater simulation, as they suggest, would be necessary at all. I'm interpreting their suggestion that someone set up a water heater simulation not as helpful, healthy skepticism, but as setting up an unrealistic and difficult-to-accomplish test protocol, on the assumption that nobody's going to go to such lengths, so they're safe in continuing to sell their magnets for pipe descaling.

ETA: It wouldn't have to be a long-term test, either; I would assume that with, like, scientific engineering calipers and suchlike precision instruments you'd be able to measure whether one pipe has more millimeters of scale on it after only a couple of weeks.

Actually, heat is a factor in scale formation. Typically, the water contains Calcium and bicarbonate (HC03-) ions. When it's heated, the bicarbonate decomposes to CO2 gas, carbonate ion and water. Calcium carbonate has very low solubility and precipitates out. The claim made by the purveyors of magnetic water treatment, as I understand it, is that the magnetic field changes the properties of the ions such that the calcium carbonate precipitates as a fine powder that can be flushed out of the water heater rather than as a hard scale that accumulates on the metal surfaces. AFAIK, there is no scientific evidence to support this claim.

 

[EHocking]

Actually, heat is a factor in scale formation. Typically, the water contains Calcium and bicarbonate (HC03-) ions. When it's heated, the bicarbonate decomposes to CO2 gas, carbonate ion and water. Calcium carbonate has very low solubility and precipitates out. The claim made by the purveyors of magnetic water treatment, as I understand it, is that the magnetic field changes the properties of the ions such that the calcium carbonate precipitates as a fine powder that can be flushed out of the water heater rather than as a hard scale that accumulates on the metal surfaces. AFAIK, there is no scientific evidence to support this claim.

I offer no endorsement of the paper that I'm about to link to, but it seems to indicate that there may be some scientific validity in pursuing this. I seem to recall^[TM] that at an industrial level (e.g., massive magnetic fields) that this is feasible.

Anyway, I put up this paper for perusal.
Mitigation of calcium carbonate fouling using RF electric fields.
(PDF)

 

[CORed]

I offer no endorsement of the paper that I'm about to link to, but it seems to indicate that there may be some scientific validity in pursuing this. I seem to recall^[TM] that at an industrial level (e.g., massive magnetic fields) that this is feasible.

Anyway, I put up this paper for perusal.
Mitigation of calcium carbonate fouling using RF electric fields.
(PDF)

Interesting, but I notice that they are using RF electric fields applied directly to the water, not static magnetic fields from permanent magnets. So even if the results are confirmed, it doesn't necessarily mean that permanent magnets will do the same thing. I know the claims of using strong magnets on pipes to reduce scale have been around for at least 25 years. The fact that this hasn't become standard practice in industry seems to be a pretty good indication that it doesn't work.

 

[EHocking]

Interesting, but I notice that they are using RF electric fields applied directly to the water, not static magnetic fields from permanent magnets. So even if the results are confirmed, it doesn't necessarily mean that permanent magnets will do the same thing. I know the claims of using strong magnets on pipes to reduce scale have been around for at least 25 years. The fact that this hasn't become standard practice in industry seems to be a pretty good indication that it doesn't work.

That seems to fit with my memory (perhaps not a post here but on sci.skeptic years ago) of industrial applications of the technology. Certainly not involving permanent magnets.