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Stand Your Ground (licence to kill)?

Yes, all those things are possible but note how hard you had to work to justify your position.
Actually we are justifying YOUR position. It is you who is trying to justify the burglar's actions, and honestly for what? Do you really think the detective on the scene was lying?

Either the burglar did, or did not run at Joe Horn, all other speculation goes to intent, and perspective.

If they did run at Joe Horn, then his perspective is justified REGARDLESS of the burglars reasons for running.

IMHO its a very strange tactic to try to lay out an argument for why the burglar should have not ran at Joe Horn unless you think the detective lied.
 
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Me. If I were a burglar, I'd drop the swag and flee or stop and comply. Does a criminal have a legal right to use - or threaten to use - force to further his or her crime?

I surely hope this is sarcasm, because if not, FSM help us all.
 
Sigh... you do realize that all along, in all your posts, that you have been assuming facts too... right?
No. Probabilities.

Heck - even the fact that we (super dooper skeptics) are arguing this shows how inbuilt/preconceived perceptions can influence judgment.

Honestly, I think a bear would get a more visceral response from me... a shotgun would get a more intellectual fear.
I've no idea what intellectual fear is. I've an idea but it's not worth hashing out. That you wouldn't have a flight or fight response in the face of death is simply moving this to the point of absurdity. But, I don't like browbeating and I've made a commitment to avoid it. At this point I think the debate would likely devolve into bickering. So, though I find the notion silly, I'll concede I'm no expert and my hobby of studying mind sciences doesn't give me the ability to state categorically that you are wrong. I'll accept that you believe it and we can agree to disagree.
 
I'll concede I'm no expert and my hobby of studying mind sciences doesn't give me the ability to state categorically that you are wrong.

Probably best, as they say "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
 
Probably best, as they say "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
I currently have over s dozen books in my collection and I've taken college courses. I think that's more than a little bit of knowledge. Please don't confuse intellectual honesty with an admission of ignorance. I just know I lack sufficient knowledge. And I do know I get things wrong. But I'm not a shrinking violet when it comes to the subject of mind sciences.
 
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(emphasis added)

Wow, do you have any actual knowledge about how confrontations like that really happen, or do you get all of your information from action movies and cop shows?

No, actually I got that from real life. I had a friend who loved guns. Several times he thought he heard someone in his house and just started shooting bullets through walls. Incredibly he never got in trouble for it. This is the guy I've talked about who wanted a concealed carry license. The state of California wouldn't give him one so he moved to Nevada.

He was the only person I ever knew who legally owned a handgun.

How about this scenario: You hide in a closet hoping that the robber will grab your stuff and go away, not realizing he's down the hall raping your 12-year-old daughter.

Every bit as realistic as your scenario, if not more so.

:rolleyes: If he's taking the time to rape he's definitely getting caught.

Or better yet, he's a serial killer on a typical escalation path, and he sets fire to your living room before jumping out the window with your stereo.

:rolleyes::nope:

That's what it keeps being portrayed as, it seems.

1. You try to steal my stuff. I can't shoot you for that but I can try to intervene.

2. You physically resist intervention. I can defend myself.

3. You decide to retailiate with a reasonable threat of death or great bodily harm. I get to return the favor.

Many states say that nowhere in that scenario can a jury weigh whether or not I had an oppurtunity to retreat in deciding if the shooting was lawful.

Okay, so you come out and tell the guy to leave. And he does. What do you do?

Yeah yeah, we can all make up a bunch of silly what-ifs where my hypothetical situation saves more innocent children than yours. Big deal. And your use of the straw man scenario of someone "sitting around with a hand cannon wishing someone looks at the house wrong so they can unleash a hail of lead" is nonsense. It's a dishonest misrepresentation of what people are actually saying.

No, it's an honest representation of what I think of people who want take someones life so they don't lose their Grey's Anatomy blue ray set.

As you can tell I don't think very highly of them.

Go hide in the closet if you want.

Yes, the only other option besides opening fire with a gun is to go hide in a closet. :rolleyes:

Or offer to help the crooks carry your stuff out to their truck.

Yes, the only other option besides opening fire with a gun our hiding in a closet is to help them with your stuff.

Apparently you live in a world where telling them to stop and leave or call the police doesn't exist.

And if you magically know whether someone who breaks into your house means you harm or just wants your stereo, you ought to go for that JREF million dollar prize.

How many times do I have to tell people that I know I don't know that. That's why I don't want to be in a position of having to determine it.

The job of the police is to come after a crime has been committed, interview witnesses, take some notes, and write a report about what happened as well as they can tell. Happened. That's past tense. It's not the job of the police to prevent crimes. It's not their responsibility.

They do sometime catch people in the act. But, yeah, largely they investigate crimes after they happened. So what?

And sometimes the meth head kills someone. And sometimes a perfectly innocent but well prepared citizen kills the meth head before any more harm can be done.

Which is why I was ready to attack him if he actually tried to hurt someone. He didn't.

I have a question about your example. Why does the robber who explicitly intends not to harm anyone, and who would "never escalate things," have a gun with him?

When my older brother was making & selling methamphetamine he often had an illegal gun on him. So did most of his drug business buddies. They were not, however, proficient in using them. At least one of his buddies accidentally shot himself when panicked once.

Anyways, the guns were to protect themselves from other drug dealers. It's conceivable a robber would also always be armed for protection from other robbers or whoever he intends to sell the stuff to.
 
No, actually I got that from real life. I had a friend who loved guns. Several times he thought he heard someone in his house and just started shooting bullets through walls. Incredibly he never got in trouble for it. This is the guy I've talked about who wanted a concealed carry license. The state of California wouldn't give him one so he moved to Nevada.

He was the only person I ever knew who legally owned a handgun.


I've known people who owned guns pretty much all the 50+ years of my life. I've never known any of them to be that irresponsible.

:rolleyes: If he's taking the time to rape he's definitely getting caught.


The typical response time to a 911 call appears to be in the 7 to 10 minute range. "Yeah, you just keep at it, buddy. You'll be sorry. The cops are on the way." :rolleyes:

Okay, so you come out and tell the guy to leave. And he does. What do you do?


I probably wouldn't ask an intruder to leave unless I had a gun in my hand. If he's in my house stealing my stuff, he is already breaching our generally accepted social/property barriers. And I'll already consider him a risk to the safety of my home and family. Whether he gets the benefit of the doubt should be my call to make at that point, not his. He certainly hasn't earned it.

Yeah yeah, we can all make up a bunch of silly what-ifs where my hypothetical situation saves more innocent children than yours. Big deal. And your use of the straw man scenario of someone "sitting around with a hand cannon wishing someone looks at the house wrong so they can unleash a hail of lead" is nonsense. It's a dishonest misrepresentation of what people are actually saying.

No, it's an honest representation of what I think of people who want take someones life so they don't lose their Grey's Anatomy blue ray set.


If you honestly think people are advocating "sitting around with a hand cannon wishing someone looks at the house wrong so they can unleash a hail of lead", there's a serious disconnect between reality and your assessment of it.

As you can tell I don't think very highly of them.


You don't think very highly of people who would choose to defend their property rather than watch someone steal it, yet if you caught a thief in the act, you think highly enough of him to ask him to leave. Interesting take, and one which you're certainly entitled to, but... :rolleyes:

Yes, the only other option besides opening fire with a gun is to go hide in a closet. :rolleyes:

Yes, the only other option besides opening fire with a gun our hiding in a closet is to help them with your stuff.

Apparently you live in a world where telling them to stop and leave or call the police doesn't exist.


I live in a world where telling them to stop is only going to happen if I'm prepared to effectively defend my life, family, and property in the event that they don't heed my request. I also live in a world where calling the police to come gather evidence, interview witnesses, and write a report doesn't protect my home and family.

How many times do I have to tell people that I know I don't know that. That's why I don't want to be in a position of having to determine it.


I don't think any of us want to be in that position. Unfortunately wanting or not wanting has little bearing on reality.

They do sometime catch people in the act. But, yeah, largely they investigate crimes after they happened. So what?


So investigating a crime after it happens means it happened. Past tense. By various estimates, citizens with guns prevent a half million to two million crimes a year from even happening. They could just allow a million more crimes to occur and call the police when it's over. So what, eh?

Which is why I was ready to attack him if he actually tried to hurt someone. He didn't.


It appears we differ on that point. Rather than viewing it as attacking him, I view it as defending myself.

When my older brother was making & selling methamphetamine he often had an illegal gun on him. So did most of his drug business buddies. They were not, however, proficient in using them. At least one of his buddies accidentally shot himself when panicked once.

Anyways, the guns were to protect themselves from other drug dealers. It's conceivable a robber would also always be armed for protection from other robbers or whoever he intends to sell the stuff to.


It's conceivable a robber would always be armed? So you'd ask him to leave. Interesting, and certainly within your rights to take whatever risk you choose. If you're not comfortable with guns, it's probably best that you don't consider owning one or using one to defend your life, home, family, or property.

But if you want to protect the "bad guys" from the possibility of getting themselves killed in the line of duty, so to speak, maybe working to reduce the number of bad guys would be a good thing to do. Maybe it would be good to convince them that choosing those dangerous activities might get them killed.
 
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No, actually I got that from real life. I had a friend who loved guns. Several times he thought he heard someone in his house and just started shooting bullets through walls. Incredibly he never got in trouble for it. This is the guy I've talked about who wanted a concealed carry license. The state of California wouldn't give him one so he moved to Nevada.

He was the only person I ever knew who legally owned a handgun.
And one anecdotal lunatic can definitely be extrapolated to the majority of firearm owners in the US. Not at all a logical fallacy, nor a complete anomaly when compared to the actual statistics on firearm ownership and use. Yeah.
:rolleyes: If he's taking the time to rape he's definitely getting caught.
Lotta police cases say otherwise.
You can't address the point, so you just dismiss it. Yeah, that makes your assertions look valid and strong. Guess that tells me the value of trying to debate you any further.
Anyways, the guns were to protect themselves from other drug dealers. It's conceivable a robber would also always be armed for protection from other robbers or whoever he intends to sell the stuff to.
And, of course, they'd only ever use them against other criminals, and never even think about using them against unarmed citizens, because they're just that ethical and respectful of other people's rights and personal security. Yeah. Should definitely be a lot of rolleyes emoticons used here.
 
No, actually I got that from real life. I had a friend who loved guns. Several times he thought he heard someone in his house and just started shooting bullets through walls. Incredibly he never got in trouble for it. This is the guy I've talked about who wanted a concealed carry license. The state of California wouldn't give him one so he moved to Nevada.

He was the only person I ever knew who legally owned a handgun.

:rolleyes: If he's taking the time to rape he's definitely getting caught.



:rolleyes::nope:



Okay, so you come out and tell the guy to leave. And he does. What do you do?



No, it's an honest representation of what I think of people who want take someones life so they don't lose their Grey's Anatomy blue ray set.

As you can tell I don't think very highly of them.



Yes, the only other option besides opening fire with a gun is to go hide in a closet. :rolleyes:



Yes, the only other option besides opening fire with a gun our hiding in a closet is to help them with your stuff.

Apparently you live in a world where telling them to stop and leave or call the police doesn't exist.



How many times do I have to tell people that I know I don't know that. That's why I don't want to be in a position of having to determine it.



They do sometime catch people in the act. But, yeah, largely they investigate crimes after they happened. So what?



Which is why I was ready to attack him if he actually tried to hurt someone. He didn't.



When my older brother was making & selling methamphetamine he often had an illegal gun on him. So did most of his drug business buddies. They were not, however, proficient in using them. At least one of his buddies accidentally shot himself when panicked once.

Anyways, the guns were to protect themselves from other drug dealers. It's conceivable a robber would also always be armed for protection from other robbers or whoever he intends to sell the stuff to
.

Travis, you need to start hanging around a better class of person.
 
It's interesting how burglars running across Joe Horn's lawn gets twisted into running at Joe Horn.
 
Okay, so you come out and tell the guy to leave. And he does. What do you do?

I would collect as much information as I safetly could for police.

Really, I want you to try this. Go to one of your local gun clubs and start telling people stuff like that as if you did it. Man someone broke in last month and I really showed them. I blasted the hell out of the wall I thought he was behind. then you can do a I hope somebody does break in cause I can't wait to open up on the scumbag with my new Sig.

You need to be quick about it, though cause they're gonna walk off and the second or third time you're gonna meet the Range Master on the way to the parking lot.
 
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Wait, hold on, flight or fight works or not? Yes or no?
False dichotomy, and non-sequitor. Fight or flight is not a binary quality, nor does it have completely predictable results.

And why do you insist on completely ignoring the well-documented fact that natural responses can be highly altered, and perform in profoundly different manners, by the influence of drugs, mental illness, and other conditions?
 
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And why do you insist on completely ignoring the well-documented fact that natural responses can be highly altered, and perform in profoundly different manners, by the influence of drugs, mental illness, and other conditions?
Why do you insist on ignoring that I've agreed to your point over and over and over. How many times must I agree with you before you accept that I agree with you. You have a point it's just that it is relatively rare for 1 person to act in such a manner. 2 people puts it in the realm of winning the lottery.

Do you read what I write? Do you care? If not then I see no reason to respond to you.
 
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False dichotomy, and non-sequitor. Fight or flight is not a binary quality, nor does it have completely predictable results.
I'll withdraw the statement. But let me point out that I don't claim that it has completely predictable results. Nothing about "fight or flight" suggest predictability. That's absurd and that is a non-sequitor.
 
He didn't say that. At no point did he say "If they have surrendered, been disarmed and rendered harmless, they should get a bullet in the back of the head".

In fact, no one has said that.

You are arguing from an emotional position and it is leading you to exaggerate others stance (whether weaver or isosceles).

I lol'ed.

Travis, you need to start hanging around a better class of person.
Or even better, move to Europe.

Few guns and they have high-speed rail. :D
 
It's interesting how burglars running across Joe Horn's lawn gets twisted into running at Joe Horn.
Then stop twisting.

The premise derived from the police eyewitness was that they entered his property and didn't stop when he told them to.
 
I would collect as much information as I safetly could for police.

Really, I want you to try this. Go to one of your local gun clubs and start telling people stuff like that as if you did it. Man someone broke in last month and I really showed them. I blasted the hell out of the wall I thought he was behind. then you can do a I hope somebody does break in cause I can't wait to open up on the scumbag with my new Sig.

You need to be quick about it, though cause they're gonna walk off and the second or third time you're gonna meet the Range Master on the way to the parking lot.

Good/accurate description. Some won't be able to get their heads around it - betcha!! I suspect the wall thing would be all it would take. :D:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp
 
Then stop twisting.

The premise derived from the police eyewitness was that they entered his property and didn't stop when he told them to.

:D

So Texas does allow the use of deadly force to protect properly. Otherwise Joe Horn the idiot with a shotgun would have been charged with manslaughter.

The claim made earlier that various Supreme Court cases had found Texas statute 9.42 unconstitutional doesn't hold up.
 
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