Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[TheL8Elvis]

During the 911 call, Zimmerman is following Martin and Zimmerman tells the dispatcher "he ran". So by Zimmerman's own words we know he was chasing someone who was running away from him.

And to you, the most plausible scenario is that upon completion of that call, Zimmerman immediately turned around to return to his truck, while simultaneously Martin also decided to stop and turn around, and then attack the guy from which, only moments before, he was was running away?

That's the most plausible scenario?

So you believe zimmerman when he says he was chasing him, but not when he says he lost him. Convenient.

 

[johnny karate]

My own personal feeling is that GZ had every legal right to follow Trayvon, however I am not sure what the legal ramifications are of him approaching TM and questioning him.

This hang-up some people seem to have in strictly defining Zimmerman's actions in terms of legality doesn't create a full and honest account of the appropriateness of his behavior.

I have the legal right to coat my head in honey and stick it in a fire ant hill. But that doesn't make it a good idea.

The bottom line is that taking a gun and following someone you suspect to be a criminal is a reckless and dangerous idea.

GZ had a right to watch TM, but did he really have cause to call the police? GZ did not witness TM doing anything a normal person would have seen as suspicious. By calling the police, GZ escalated the situation.

I have no problem with Zimmerman calling the police, despite whatever implication about racial profiling that might have. Sure, Martin might have been unjustly hassled, but in hindsight, it's definitely the lesser of two evils.

When GZ got out of his truck to run after TM, he escalated the situation once again.

This is what I believe to be the true incitement point. Had Zimmerman simply remained in his truck as a safe responsible person should, Trayvon Martin would still be alive today.

It bothers me a bit that GZ saw someone walking through a neighborhood and was suspicious. What was he suspicious of exactly? No crime had been committed. TM was on the phone. How is that suspicious? I question his calling 9/11 but hey, if it would have soothed GZ's fears and kept him from playing super hero then it would have been worth it.

Exactly.

 

[eeyore1954]

So when it suits Z's case he is on the neighborhood watch, but when it doesn't suit Z's case he wasn't really on the neighborhood watch.

Got it.

eeyore said

Zimmermann was on the neighborhood watch, supposedly there had been several burglaries in the area, maybe it is uncommon to see people walking through the neighborhood especially in the evening...

What I meant was he was a member of the neighborhood watch. Is that true or not? If I am incorrect I am sorry.

If he was a member of a neighborhood watch I don't see if it matters if he was officially on at that moment or not. Aren't you always supposed to be alert.
I don't think whether he is even a member of a neighborhood watch or not should have any bearing on the legal case.

 

[RandFan]

*I am creating a story based on the events we know. None of this is fact or considered a likelyhood over any other, by any means.*

According to the girlfriend, Trayvon put his hood on after he noticed Zimmerman was watching him. Zimmerman is driving and sees a kid walking slowly through the neighborhood. [I know when I am on the phone, I am animated when I talk. I know I've seen other people walking and moving their body weird and at first I think they are crazy, then I see they are talking on a BT.] It is quite possible that the "acting weird... like he's on drugs," could have been Trayvon's body movements while he talked on the phone. This could have caught Zimmerman's attention and caused him to watch for other bizarre behaviors. Trayvon, notices a strange man is watching him and puts on his hood. Zimmerman sees a kid, acting like he is on drugs notice him and then put on his hood, which could have looked like he was hiding his identity. He was hiding his identity, but from two different POV's come two different reasons why.

\

Good post. Thanks.

 

[johnny karate]

So you believe zimmerman when he says he was chasing him, but not when he says he lost him. Convenient.

When did Zimmerman say he lost him? A quote and a time on the audio where I can find that quote would be helpful.

And supposing Zimmerman did say he lost him, what makes you think I don't believe him? Or do you imagine that once you lose someone you are chasing it is impossible to ever find them again?

 

[eeyore1954]

This hang-up some people seem to have in strictly defining Zimmerman's actions in terms of legality doesn't create a full and honest account of the appropriateness of his behavior.

Maybe true but isn't the main question being discussed whether or not he should have been arrested?

 

[Unabogie]

I haven't read every post in the thread, so forgive me, but is there a theory of motive for Zimmerman murdering Treyvon? Just seems odd that he would call the police over there to come meet him and then, directly afterward, decide to murder Treyvon in an area with a lot of potential witnesses.

Of course it also seems odd that Treyvon would attack Zimmerman and slam his head into the ground and/or reach for his firearm just because he was being followed. Oddly enough a lot of anti-Zimmerman people are making Zimmerman's case by claiming things like "if some armed person was following me around, you bet I would try to attack and disarm them". I don't buy that most people would do that in that situation or that it's a reasonable course of action to expect, though.

The most plausible scenario I can imagine is that neither initially intended to kill or severely injure the other, but one of them started a fight (either Martin because he didn't like being followed or Zimmerman because he thought Martin was an outsider to the neighborhood and a criminal) and it quickly escalated, prompting either Martin becoming enraged and slamming Zimmerman's head into the ground or Zimmerman becoming enraged and murdering Martin in the heat of the moment.

This is my working theory. Zimmerman confronted Martin and it didn't go well. Maybe Martin pushed him, maybe Martin mouthed off and Zimmerman pushed first. They got into a tussle, then Zimmerman killed him because he lost control of himself. I don't believe that was Zimmerman screaming and I don't think he was in fear for his life. I think he was pissed off and committed 2nd degree murder.

 

[johnny karate]

Maybe true but isn't the main question being discussed whether or not he should have been arrested?

Yes, but that determination - at least right now - seems to rest solely on the word of George Zimmerman. So in examining what few facts we have regarding Zimmerman's actions from that night, we can assess the veracity of what he claims.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

When did Zimmerman say he lost him? A quote and a time on the audio where I can find that quote would be helpful.

And supposing Zimmerman did say he lost him, what makes you think I don't believe him? Or do you imagine that once you lose someone you are chasing it is impossible to ever find them again?

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html
Zimmerman: It's a home it's 1950, oh crap I don't want to give it all out, I don't know where this kid is
Well, you did say earlier that the lack of bandage on the video casts doubt on everything GZ said. I don't recall if you specifically said you believed GZ on that particular point or not. Do you ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

This is my working theory. Zimmerman confronted Martin and it didn't go well. Maybe Martin pushed him, maybe Martin mouthed off and Zimmerman pushed first. They got into a tussle, then Zimmerman killed him because he lost control of himself. I don't believe that was Zimmerman screaming and I don't think he was in fear for his life. I think he was pissed off and committed 2nd degree murder.

Why do you have that theory when the GF makes it pretty clear TM stopped and spoke first to GZ ?

 

[Roadtoad]

This hang-up some people seem to have in strictly defining Zimmerman's actions in terms of legality doesn't create a full and honest account of the appropriateness of his behavior.

I have the legal right to coat my head in honey and stick it in a fire ant hill. But that doesn't make it a good idea.

The bottom line is that taking a gun and following someone you suspect to be a criminal is a reckless and dangerous idea.

This. Bullseye.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The bottom line is that taking a gun and following someone you suspect to be a criminal is a reckless and dangerous idea.

This. Bullseye.

Damn reckless police....

 

[Roadtoad]

Damn reckless police....

 

[johnny karate]

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html
Zimmerman: It's a home it's 1950, oh crap I don't want to give it all out, I don't know where this kid is

Thanks for that. Some of the tape is garbled and hard to follow.

Well, you did say earlier that the lack of bandage on the video casts doubt on everything GZ said. I don't recall if you specifically said you believed GZ on that particular point or not. Do you ?

I have no reason to disbelieve Zimmerman on that point because it's irrelevant to the overall narrative. It's perfectly possibly to be chasing someone, lose them, and then regain sight of them and resume the chase.

If anything, that Zimmerman lost sight of Martin makes me more inclined to believe he continued the pursuit after the 911 call.

And for the sake of clarity, what I don't believe is that Zimmerman immediately halted his pursuit after the 911 call, only to then have the person who had been running away from him suddenly leap out of the darkness and attack him.

 

[johnny karate]

Damn reckless police....

I know you're being glib, but it only serves to further illustrate my point.

Police officers have the training and authorization to pursue suspected criminals.

From what we can tell, Zimmerman might not have even bothered to receive the proper training for his role as neighborhood watch captain.

Reckless and dangerous.

 

[RandFan]

Damn reckless police....

I know you're being glib, but it on serves to further illustrate my point.

Police officers have the training and authorization to pursue suspected criminals.

From what we can tell, Zimmerman might not have even bothered to receive the proper training for his role as neighborhood watch captain.

Reckless and dangerous.

I want to second this. Agreed. I would recommend that if you are not trained that you not pursue people you think are potentially dangerous.

 

[sgtbaker]

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/La...tion/-/1637132/9613958/-/57edqqz/-/index.html

Crump played the audio files of the girl, whose identity won't be released because of her age, where she says Martin was running back from 7-Eleven in the rain and he ran into a nearby apartment awning to get shelter. He then called her back at 6:54 p.m. and said he was walking with his hood up.

According to her audio testimony, she said Martin told her "I think this dude is following me," and slowed down to see who it was. She says she then told him to "be careful and just run home."

She said Martin tried to lose Zimmerman and thought he did. He then said "Oh he's right behind me again," according to her testimony, before asking Zimmerman "Why are you following me?"

If that is an accurate reflection of what the GF says, I think he had his hood up prior to entering the subdivision.

Also:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/u...=me&adxnnlx=1333738821-dQPGQe0XELBf wWotjNglQ

Mr. Zimmerman’s father said that what largely aroused his son’s suspicion was how this person was walking close to the town houses, and not on the sidewalk or in the street.

“He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on,” she said. “He said he lost the man. I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/...d-recalls-final-conversation-before-shooting/
It could be misquoting, either way. We know how dedicated to accuracy they have been so far. I just don't want you to think I was making it up.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Thanks for that. Some of the tape is garbled and hard to follow.

You're welcome.

I have no reason to disbelieve Zimmerman on that point because it's irrelevant to the overall narrative. It's perfectly possibly to be chasing someone, lose them, and then regain sight of them and resume the chase.

What evidence led you/leads you to believe this occurred ?

 

[KatieG]

Wow, you are brave, I have read (or skim read) every post in this thread. But I have done so as the thread evolved.

I see the main issue as this:

-the evidence has been dribbled and spun out, dribbled by the sources and then spun out by everyone else.

I was upset because a 17 yo engaged in daily activities is dead. ( I would be upset if it happened to any one, but I have a 17yo son, so that is a hook) When we go on trips we give our son considerable latitude to explore on his own, like in Newport OR, or Cape Perpetua OR.

Now especially if we were staying in Gainesville FL, where my father lives, I can see us letting him go to the store to get tea and a snack.

So I think it is going to come down to what happens, if you are following someone and a fight breaks out. Who has the culpability.

And this one will be a mess, we only have GZ's testimony. We have the testimony of TM's girlfriend. And then all the unknown forensics that will be revealed at the trial (if there is one).

Now I also have had personal experience in being followed and approached by strangers I find questionable. It usually involves me yelling "NO GET THE HELL AWAY FROM ME" in a very loud voice, getting safe and calling the police.

My own personal feeling is that GZ had every legal right to follow Trayvon, however I am not sure what the legal ramifications are of him approaching TM and questioning him. Especially since we will never know the actual details of that encounter. I do question how it happened that in the process of questioning someone else, a fight ensued.

I again would have been yelling my fool head off.

I started reading this thread when it was on page 2.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/...d-recalls-final-conversation-before-shooting/
It could be misquoting, either way. We know how dedicated to accuracy they have been so far. I just don't want you to think I was making it up.

The testimony of the GF has been rather nebulously reported.

The piece I quoted could also be read this way:

She said he was walking with his hood up. According to her audio testimony, she said Martin told her "I think this dude is following me" and slowed down to see who it was.

But ... idk. I would think he would put his hood up because it was raining. That makes the most sense to me.