Pink Slime

[Dipayan]

It comes down to interpreting "deleterious effect on the nutritional quality of ground beef." You are welcome to enjoy your collagen.

You have been quoting Sebranek's study for the last 8 pages, when it seemed to support your position. Now when the author has made it clear that his study in no way supports your position, you're hand waving it away as irrelevant and open to interpretation?

I prefer the taste of meat. Don't try to tell me they are the same

You are assuming the antecedent. Your argument basically is -

1. My ground beef tastes bad.
2. It must be LFBT which makes it taste bad.
3. Hence, LFBT makes ground beef taste bad.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You have been quoting Sebranek's study for the last 8 pages, when it seemed to support your position. Now when the author has made it clear that his study in no way supports your position, you're hand waving it away as irrelevant and open to interpretation?

The only thing the paper does not support are the other people's positions that keep being conflated with mine.

I have never said the stuff was unsafe.
I have said and defended the fact ammonia treatment is safe, ammonia is a byproduct of the metabolism going on in every cell in your body.

My complaints about the product are:
1) They started putting this stuff in hamburger without telling anyone.
2) The industry interests lobbied and got the legislators in the US to legally redefine hamburger so that the industry did not need to label hamburger as having an additive.
3) Calling it lean "beef" trimmings is purposefully intended to make the consumer think "lean meat" while being technically correct calling things like tendons, beef.
4) I have been asking meat sellers for years, what has changed in their hamburger because it began tasting rubbery to me and I found the taste unpalatable. I've had to throw the stuff out it was so awful to me. I had to quit buying prepackaged burger and came to not trust all the supposedly fresh ground burger either.
5) All this time the meat sellers either didn't know or lied saying nothing about the burger had changed.

Does the paper I cited support the fact this additive changed the texture of my burger?
Absolutely!

Does the paper show lean beef trimmings contain more collagen protein than muscle protein?
YES! It does.

Is collagen protein as nutritious as muscle protein?
NO! It is harder to digest and lacks one of the essential amino acids.

Does that mean it is bad for you?
NO! And I never once said it was.

Does it make sense that adding more fibrous proteins like tendons and connective tissue would change the texture of burger if added in quantities as high as 20%?
Absolutely!


So just what is it you think I've said the paper does not support? Joey keeps arguing the stuff is the same as the rest of the hamburger. He continues to claim there is just as much muscle meat in lean beef trimmings or at a minimum the non-muscle protein is indistinguishable from the muscle protein.

The AS Leaflet's author is complaining that people have used his paper to support claims the lean beef trimmings are unsafe. I have never made that straw man argument.

You are assuming the antecedent. Your argument basically is -

1. My ground beef tastes bad.
2. It must be LFBT which makes it taste bad.
3. Hence, LFBT makes ground beef taste bad.

Not quite. Try this instead:
The texture of prepackaged ground beef changed a number of years ago.
The only meat I found consistently not having that texture was fresh ground at one store.

LFBT was added to prepackaged burger about the same time as I noticed the disgusting texture change.
The fresh ground burger I found that was OK turned out not to have it.
LFBT uses beef parts that are more fibrous and have a different texture than regular burger.

If it quacks like a duck....

I am reasonably certain, removal of the stuff and labeling burger without it will help me confirm that certainty.

 

[Dipayan]

My complaints about the product are:
1) They started putting this stuff in hamburger without telling anyone.

Who is the 'they'? Is it the duty of the manufacturer of a raw product (BPI) or the packager and retailer (Safeway, Wal-Mart, McDonalds, Taco Bell etc) to inform its consumers about ingredients? Is it your belief that all the companies that used BPI ground beef did not know about the LFTB? Is it BPI's duty or McDonald's duty to label a Big Mac with its constituent ingredients?

2) The industry interests lobbied and got the legislators in the US to legally redefine hamburger so that the industry did not need to label hamburger as having an additive.

Could you please provide me with some evidence for this? All I have seen to support this till now is that an individual happened to change jobs to a position that paid her about $70,000 a year. Just to put that in context, the average salary of a 35-54 yr old American female (with a bachelors degree) as of 2009 was ~$67,000. Source.

3) Calling it lean "beef" trimmings is purposefully intended to make the consumer think "lean meat" while being technically correct calling things like tendons, beef.

BPI does not sell to consumers. Retailers and companies are expected to do due diligence on their suppliers, and I would be extremely surprised if all these companies did not already know about the presence of LFTB in their ground beef. If they felt this was amiss, it was the duty of the retailers to inform the consumers. BPI does not deal with consumers at all, so your entire point of 'calling it LFTB to fool the consumer' is somewhat inconsistent.

4) I have been asking meat sellers for years, what has changed in their hamburger because it began tasting rubbery to me and I found the taste unpalatable. I've had to throw the stuff out it was so awful to me. I had to quit buying prepackaged burger and came to not trust all the supposedly fresh ground burger either.

All this shows is that you, an individual, felt that the taste of hamburgers had changed and your meat sellers could not explain it.

5) All this time the meat sellers either didn't know or lied saying nothing about the burger had changed.

Assuming the antecedent. Maybe nothing about the burger had changed in the way that you mean.

Does the paper I cited support the fact this additive changed the texture of my burger?

Absolutely!

The paper you cited supported the fact that LFTB makes the meat more tender.

Texture evaluation of the frankfurters showed the products with LFTB to be softer and more tender, a desirable characteristic for low-fat products.

Does the paper show lean beef trimmings contain more collagen protein than muscle protein?
YES! It does.

Relevance?

Is collagen protein as nutritious as muscle protein?
NO! It is harder to digest and lacks one of the essential amino acids.

You've been talking about taste and labeling, not nutrition.

Does that mean it is bad for you?
NO! And I never once said it was.

I didn't claim that you did.

Does it make sense that adding more fibrous proteins like tendons and connective tissue would change the texture of burger if added in quantities as high as 20%?
Absolutely!

Yes, as mentioned above, it makes the meat more tender. If you want to claim otherwise, you are of course free to do so. Just that it is not supported by the scientific paper you were using as evidence a few pages back. If you are claiming that Sebranek is incorrect and that the addition of LFTB should definitely makes meat more gristly (your original description), then again we go back to the circular argument.

So just what is it you think I've said the paper does not support?

All of the above.

The AS Leaflet's author is complaining that people have used his paper to support claims the lean beef trimmings are unsafe. I have never made that straw man argument.

Sebranek specifically mentioned that people are also using his report to claim that LFTB is making ground beef less nutritious and that his study does not support this. You have made the same claim multiple times.

Our research is potentially being misinterpreted by some in the media as suggesting that LFTB has a deleterious effect on the nutritional quality of ground beef. Nothing in our study or what we know about collagen more broadly should lead one to that conclusion.

Is collagen protein as nutritious as muscle protein?
NO! It is harder to digest and lacks one of the essential amino acids.

LFBT was added to prepackaged burger about the same time as I noticed the disgusting texture change.

This is your assumption or a very very rough estimate. Also, you seem to be the only consumer who felt a 'disgusting texture change'.

The fresh ground burger I found that was OK turned out not to have it.

And you know this how? Through you circular argument I would believe - meat that tastes good tastes good because it doesn't have LFTB in it.

LFBT uses beef parts that are more fibrous and have a different texture than regular burger.

Correct. More smooth and tender apparently.

If it quacks like a duck....

You've just heard a noise and now you're convinced that it was a quack because if it wasn't a quack then you wouldn't be convinced, right?

I am reasonably certain, removal of the stuff and labeling burger without it will help me confirm that certainty.

And I'm reasonably certain that you would be surprised.

 

[Daald]

Sceptic Ginger,

Why don't you conduct a blind test for yourself to pinpoint if this stuff is the reason why the hamburger taste changed for you?

I would be interested to know the results if you could blind yourself sufficiently.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Sceptic Ginger,

Why don't you conduct a blind test for yourself to pinpoint if this stuff is the reason why the hamburger taste changed for you?

I would be interested to know the results if you could blind yourself sufficiently.

I did this already long before LBTs made the news. I've tried many different sources of burger. First I quit buying burger from Safeway and Fred Meyer, then I had to also quit buying the pre-packaged stuff from QFC but the fresh stuff was OK for a while. Then I got bad stuff from the QFC meat counter and finally the only burger I could find that consistently didn't taste rubbery was the fresh burger at Whole Foods.

Now these grocers are stopping the use of the stuff so I tried the fresh counter meat at Fred Meyer and it was fine. Once I'm sure the grocers use up their supplies of the stuff I plan to try the pre-packaged burger again. Then I'll know for sure.

As for a blinded test, I'm sorry but not everything is subject to placebo and subjective taste. This stuff is gross to me. I hate it. I've thrown the stuff out before. It's not my imagination, it is very distinct. I don't have to do a blinded test to be sure. The fact the stuff was in all the burger brands I stopped buying and not in the one that currently tastes normal to me was a blinded test.

 

[Draca]

Colbert Report Video

Monday April 2, 2012
The Beefstate Governors
Governors from beef industry states want to end the smear campaign against lean, finely textured beef, and make the term "pink slime" a thing of the past.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-co...02-2012/the-beefstate-governors?redirect=true

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

I did this already long before LBTs made the news. I've tried many different sources of burger. First I quit buying burger from Safeway and Fred Meyer, then I had to also quit buying the pre-packaged stuff from QFC but the fresh stuff was OK for a while. Then I got bad stuff from the QFC meat counter and finally the only burger I could find that consistently didn't taste rubbery was the fresh burger at Whole Foods.

Now these grocers are stopping the use of the stuff so I tried the fresh counter meat at Fred Meyer and it was fine. Once I'm sure the grocers use up their supplies of the stuff I plan to try the pre-packaged burger again. Then I'll know for sure.

As for a blinded test, I'm sorry but not everything is subject to placebo and subjective taste. This stuff is gross to me. I hate it. I've thrown the stuff out before. It's not my imagination, it is very distinct. I don't have to do a blinded test to be sure. The fact the stuff was in all the burger brands I stopped buying and not in the one that currently tastes normal to me was a blinded test.

This is most definitely subject to placebo and subjective taste. You say it tastes gross to you, but if you don't know what bits of meat that you've tried had it or not, then how do you know it's what you're reacting to? How long ago did you stop buying those other meats, before trying it again?

 

[Joey McGee]

It doesn't say anything that supports your claim there is no difference between hamburger and this additive.

That claim doesn't but all of the other sources I showed did should I repeat those from just upthread?

It merely says the analysis did not find the product unhealthy. I never claimed it did. As for nutrition, muscle and collagen are not the same. If they were then why not eat tendons without fake names?

yeah right you said "As for "doesn't affect the nutritional content", that's a marketing lie." recently in regards to this scientist's statement.

It's lean meat muscle. Nothing refuting that yet.

It comes down to interpreting "deleterious effect on the nutritional quality of ground beef." You are welcome to enjoy your collagen. I prefer the taste of meat. Don't try to tell me they are the same.

Yeah you're the only one talking about only taste which we have no solid data on and isn't the issue the product got punished for which was lies about safety and quality

What is it about "it tastes bad" that you can't seem to grasp?

Uh, it's not really part of the scientific debate over the product and we only have you to go on and you keep repeating it. We get it. We'll see about that sometime I'm sure.

 

[Joey McGee]

For a certain definition of "beef" this is true. However, if you asked for "ground beef" and a butcher offered to grind up those trimmings right there in front of you I suspect you'd refuse them, however healthy and nutritious they might be.

Nope. They don't grind up trimmings to make this product.

I'll guess here that you've taken a turket drumstick apart for the substantial meaty bits. You're left with bone, several hefty tendons (that are considered inedible by most) with scraps of meat attached, right? Is that residual tendon/meat arrangement "lean turkey meat" in your book?

The meat is fine. Please provide evidence that the tendons are ground up in this product. There is nothing wrong with it. It's amazing they used a centrifuge and a cool product like ammonia to make it safe to add to meat for a variety of positive and economic purposes. The gross out factors that are made up out of people's imaginations don't gross me out it's shocking maybe to some people.

 

[Joey McGee]

God hopefully people don't find out how much ammonia is in a hamburger bun.

 

[tyr_13]

I note that amusingly many of the same arguments were leveled against ground meat itself when it was first introduced. Indeed it seems these arguments get recycled (making them very environmentally friendly!) every time we find a new way to process food.

 

[Draca]

Exactly!

Let's get 'pink slime' out of burgers
http://www.chron.com/opinion/editor...-pink-slime-out-of-burgers-3414038.php#page-1

But if our country is undertaking a wholesale "stretching" of the food supply with ammonia-treated bovine connective tissue, shouldn't individual consumers have the right to opt out? Just as some people relish the idea of a beef tongue sandwich and others are repelled by the notion, many consumers want to avoid pink slime for reasons both rational and irrational. Yet the USDA's decision to classify BLBT as "beef" has utterly stripped consumers of the right to know exactly what they are eating and feeding their families.

 

[Draca]

One thing I don't understand in the process of making LFTB is how the 'beef' remains raw? It is simmered at 100
degrees to soften the fat so it can be rendered from 'the rest of it' in the centrifuge. How long is it simmered? Wouldn't it take a while for the fat to soften enough? If you simmered meat on the stove it will become cooked meat, only slow cooked. How does the beef remain raw? Wouldn't it at least be par cooked?

Can anyone explain?

 

[tyr_13]

Exactly!

Let's get 'pink slime' out of burgers
http://www.chron.com/opinion/editor...-pink-slime-out-of-burgers-3414038.php#page-1

If your 'exactly' was leveled at me you should know that my comment was not supportive of your position.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

This is most definitely subject to placebo and subjective taste. You say it tastes gross to you, but if you don't know what bits of meat that you've tried had it or not, then how do you know it's what you're reacting to? How long ago did you stop buying those other meats, before trying it again?

Can you tell the difference between a rubber burger and a real one? OK, think about a continuum between a very rubbery burger and a juicy tender one. Where on that continuum do you believe a person can no longer can tell a distinct difference and it becomes a potentially self deluding subjective call? At some point before that the difference between the burgers is not a questionable taste difference. It is a very noticeable difference.

I get that people are trying to apply what we know about cola taste tests and placebos to this situation. But the texture bothered me so much I just quit buying any burger except the stuff that was consistently a normal texture to me. For me, there's nothing remotely uncertain about it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "trying it again". I haven't yet. I bought some fresh ground beef at Fred Meyer when the meat counter guys said they were certain there was no LBTs in it, it had been ground on site. It tasted normal.

First it was the pre-packaged stuff in the grocery store I noticed a problem with. At least a number of years ago I started getting bad stuff. I quit buying certain brands then quit buying any prepackaged burger at all. It happened over a period of time. IIRC the bad stuff didn't overtake the pre-packaged meat all at one time. But eventually it was bad consistently. I found the fresh ground at one QFC store was OK as well as the fresh ground at Whole Foods and I started only buying that. Then I got some bad stuff from the QFC meat department and have only been buying burger at Whole Foods since. They grind it in the store and don't add any LBT filler.

Now it turns out that all of the burger that had the awful texture did indeed have LBTs in it. The grocers have all said so. Many of them say they will no longer use beef with the additive in it. I have not tried their LBT free meat yet as I'm waiting to be sure they use up whatever supply they had before changing. My guess is they used their supply up they didn't just toss it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

One thing I don't understand in the process of making LFTB is how the 'beef' remains raw? It is simmered at 100
degrees to soften the fat so it can be rendered from 'the rest of it' in the centrifuge. How long is it simmered? Wouldn't it take a while for the fat to soften enough? If you simmered meat on the stove it will become cooked meat, only slow cooked. How does the beef remain raw? Wouldn't it at leat be par cooked?

Can anyone explain?

It was cooked. But when you grind it into uncooked meat it becomes hidden.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

.....
The meat is fine. Please provide evidence that the tendons are ground up in this product. ....

You continue to repeat this lie. The evidence has been provided. You are conflating "as nutritious" with "meat" and "all beef" with "all meat".

 

[Draca]

If your 'exactly' was leveled at me you should know that my comment was not supportive of your position.

It wasn't. I meant the quote I posted.

 

[phunk]

One thing I don't understand in the process of making LFTB is how the 'beef' remains raw? It is simmered at 100
degrees to soften the fat so it can be rendered from 'the rest of it' in the centrifuge. How long is it simmered? Wouldn't it take a while for the fat to soften enough? If you simmered meat on the stove it will become cooked meat, only slow cooked. How does the beef remain raw? Wouldn't it at leat be par cooked?

Can anyone explain?

100f is no where near simmering. It's barely above your body temperature, and you aren't cooked, are you?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

100f is no where near simmering. It's barely above your body temperature, and you aren't cooked, are you?

My crock pot cooks stuff at a low temperature after enough time. But upon reconsidering, if it were cooked there would be no need for the extra effort to kill bacteria. So it must not be cooked.