Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[crimresearch]

If Casey Anthony has demonstrated anything, getting past reasonable doubt can be difficult. If the jurors even acknowledge that this may have happened, they can't vote guilty.

I think that was settled long before Nancy Grace started informing the American public about the law.

 

[johnny karate]

Considering that GZ's lawyer is grandstanding, and not bound by the truth outside of a courtroom, I would consider it lawyering and not evidence.

I'm not sure how honest it is to keep forcing this information into terms of legality when I've already made it clear that's not what I'm talking about. It's a simple matter of believabity. "Grandstanding" is a lovely euphemism, but it does nothing to lend Zimmerman's account any credibility.

And did the wound get stitches later, we don't know.

And does that strike you as a reasonable possibility? A scalp laceration that didn't require so much as a band-aid one day would need stitches the next?

 

[dirtywick]

Besides the fact the lawyer said no, medically it's ludicrous. If you had a head laceration that required stitches it would not stop bleeding in 30 minutes without a pressure bandage. It is physically preposterous.

If you skip to about 2:20 of the video, there's a pretty nasty cut that isn't bleeding much minutes afterward.



If you google "Marvin Eastman cut" you can see more pics of it.


I mean, it's unlikely, but possible. I know when I needed stitches on my head my pants and shoes were even ruined.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Your shirt was covered in blood. Apparently that much blood made people think you'd been shot. You aren't sure what you looked like 30 minutes later.

Oh, I know what I looked like. I was covered in my own blood in the nurses office waiting for my father to pick me up and take me to the urgent care facility. I just don't know exactly when the bleeding stopped. Maybe it was 10 minutes. Maybe it was 30 minutes. It was fifteen years ago and I was twelve. The bleeding did stop on its own, and soon enough that I didn't die or concern the nurse so severely that she would call an ambulance.

How does this support the consistency with what we saw on a time stamped video of GZ about 35 minutes after the shooting?

I wasn't addressing anything about GZ. I was addressing your claim that a head wound won't stop bleeding after 30 minutes without a pressure bandage or stitches. I've had experience with this. The bleeding will stop.

 

[dirtywick]

I think that was settled long before Nancy Grace started informing the American public about the law.

But everyone was so convinced she was guilty.

 

[Moss]

Hm, at this point I do wonder how others perceive my position regarding the case. If they actually took notice.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Oh, I know what I looked like. I was covered in my own blood in the nurses office waiting for my father to pick me up and take me to the urgent care facility. I just don't know exactly when the bleeding stopped. Maybe it was 10 minutes. Maybe it was 30 minutes. It was fifteen years ago and I was twelve. The bleeding did stop on its own, and soon enough that I didn't die or concern the nurse so severely that she would call an ambulance.



I wasn't addressing anything about GZ. I was addressing your claim that a head wound won't stop bleeding after 30 minutes without a pressure bandage or stitches. I've had experience with this. The bleeding will stop.

See my edit: If someone washed off your wound you would have found it still oozing. If it was cleaned and bandaged there would be additional blood on the bandage hours later. You are picturing blood pouring out and that's not what I said. I certainly never suggested you would exsanguinate from an unbandaged head lac.

 

[Newtons Bit]

But everyone was so convinced she was guilty.

I think everyone was convinced that she was somehow responsible for the death of her kid. But no one could figure out exactly how and which law to apply (negligent homicide, homicide, etc) or if it was a legitimate accident where she was not legally at fault.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If you skip to about 2:20 of the video, there's a pretty nasty cut that isn't bleeding much minutes afterward.



If you google "Marvin Eastman cut" you can see more pics of it.


I mean, it's unlikely, but possible. I know when I needed stitches on my head my pants and shoes were even ruined.

In boxing they use a number of things to stop bleeding. Police and EMTs do not apply topical drugs when giving basic first aide. My guess is that wound got treated with something.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Besides the fact the lawyer said no, medically it's ludicrous. If you had a head laceration that required stitches it would not stop bleeding in 30 minutes without a pressure bandage. It is physically preposterous.

Is it personal anecdote time ?

My youngest tripped and cut his forehead on the desk at school. The put ice in paper towels and held it to the wound. By the time my wife and I arrived at the school (less than 10 minutes from the call, which was almost immediate) it was mostly not bleeding. We drove him to the urgent care and he got stitches. The front of his shirt had some blood, but was not in any way coated or covered.

So - I don't know - does my reality trump your blanket statement ? I can provide pictures if you don't believe me.

 

[dirtywick]

In boxing they use a number of things to stop bleeding. Police and EMTs do not apply topical drugs. My guess it that wound got treated with something.

Perhaps. I've watched combat sports for years and seen guys bleed like pigs from less, and nasty cuts that don't bleed much at all. On that note, I wouldn't dismiss outright that he got stitches from watching a grainy video from a far perspective.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Is it personal anecdote time ?

My youngest tripped and cut his forehead on the desk at school. The put ice in paper towels and held it to the wound. By the time my wife and I arrived at the school (less than 10 minutes from the call, which was almost immediate) it was mostly not bleeding. We drove him to the urgent care and he got stitches. The front of his shirt had some blood, but was not in any way coated or covered.

So - I don't know - does my reality trump your blanket statement ? I can provide pictures if you don't believe me.

They put pressure on the wound...

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Is it personal anecdote time ?

My youngest tripped and cut his forehead on the desk at school. The put ice in paper towels and held it to the wound. By the time my wife and I arrived at the school (less than 10 minutes from the call, which was almost immediate) it was mostly not bleeding. We drove him to the urgent care and he got stitches. The front of his shirt had some blood, but was not in any way coated or covered.

So - I don't know - does my reality trump your blanket statement ? I can provide pictures if you don't believe me.

It's unlikely ice would have been applied to GZ's cut though police could have had a cold pack. If they gave him a cold pack and he quit using it shortly after, the wound would likely have still been oozing or you'd see the cold pack in GZ's hand along with something to hold on his head like a dressing. Facial lacs tend to get sutures to prevent scars even when tiny. GZ is claiming his head was repeatedly smashed on a sidewalk.

I've been in health care for 35 years and worked some of those in an ED and many of them in family practice. So it's not just some anecdote. I've sutured some of those cuts myself.

 

[dirtywick]

I think everyone was convinced that she was somehow responsible for the death of her kid. But no one could figure out exactly how and which law to apply (negligent homicide, homicide, etc) or if it was a legitimate accident where she was not legally at fault.

The same situation could apply here I'd imagine, if it gets to that point. A few alternate theories and conflicting statements later nobody can decide what really happened.

 

[johnny karate]

They put pressure on the wound...

And then he got stitches.

Someone offer an anecdote in which they received a head wound serious enough to require stitches that didn't actually receive stitches, nor require a bandage, nor bled profusely, and then maybe we'll have something to compare to Zimmerman.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

It's unlikely ice would have been applied to GZ's cut though police could have had a cold packIf they gave him a cold pack and he quit using it shortly after, the wound would likely have still been oozing or you'd see the cold pack in GZ's hand along with something to hold on his head like a dressing. Facial lacs tend to get sutures to prevent scars even when tiny. GZ is claiming his head was repeatedly smashed on a sidewalk.

I've been in health care for 35 years and worked some of those in an ED and many of them in family practice. So it's not just some anecdote. I've sutured some of those cuts myself.

I wasn't claiming your statement was an anecdote, but was offering my own anecdote to counter your blanket statement.

But I have no desire to now try to determine what counts as a 'tiny' laceration, etc. Hopefully we won't have to wait too long too see whatever medical documentation exists.

 

[Dancing David]

I wasn't claiming your statement was an anecdote, but was offering my own anecdote to counter your blanket statement.

But I have no desire to now try to determine what counts as a 'tiny' laceration, etc. Hopefully we won't have to wait too long too see whatever medical documentation exists.

Even if they have a trial, it will be a long wait.

 

[Meed]

George zimmerman's attorneys on CNN right now. Piers Morgan (a man who usually I don't rate) is actually doing a really good job on challenging them. Lots of usual trying to avoid answering the question, changing the subject etc. Not making them look good at all.

Way to go PM

Not that I mind him challenging them since they did decide to appear on his show.. But it really is not the job of the media to try this case and not the job of the lawyers to defend their client against trial by media.

If Casey Anthony has demonstrated anything, getting past reasonable doubt can be difficult. If the jurors even acknowledge that this may have happened, they can't vote guilty.

I disagree. Most people who were surprised Casey Anthony wasn't convicted didn't actually watch the trial. Here there is a body, multiple eye and ear witnesses of the actual incident, voice recordings, video evidence and who knows what else. The Casey Anthony prosecutors had much less to work with.

 

[leftysergeant]

But I have no desire to now try to determine what counts as a 'tiny' laceration, etc. Hopefully we won't have to wait too long too see whatever medical documentation exists.

Problem is that there is only ONE mark of any kind, of doubtful veracity, from photoshopped pictures, consistant with his having only ONCE hit his head on the edge of a pavement. He shows no signs of having been savagely beaten by anyone. There is evidence in the fact that a spent cartridge was supposedly found in the chamber of his weapon that they were struggling for posession of the weapon when it discharged. If I have some dirtbag stalker on the ground and see that he is pulling a weapon, pummeling his head is not going to seem the best defensive maneuver possible.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

This confirms my suspicion that you didn't actually watch the video in question. Do you ignore the other links in the thread as well?

Oh my you caught me red handed! I didn't see a video you think I should have watched. And that must mean I "ignored" the other links too! So where exactly did I say I clicked on every link in this 130 page thread? I did read about 10 articles about it including the transcript of the interview with Owen on Laurence ODonnel. Does that earn me any gold stars?

Regardless, if you'd watch the interview in question, that part of the interview is the furthest from "grandstanding" as you can be. He was asked specifically if it helped to have a sample "scream" and he answered yes it would, but he didn't have one. So he said he'd record one if Zimmerman wanted to.

So Owen goes on TV saying that GZ is not the voice screaming on the tape. After offering this "expert" opinion to the entire world, he then offers to record a sample if GZ wants to. Why exactly would GZ want to give a voice sample to a person that has already pronounced he isn't the screaming party, a person who now has every personal, professional and financial motivation in the world not to reverse himself? A person who's entire credibility as an expert witness would be called into question even by attorneys in future trials if he were to reverse himself thereby admitting his first pronouncement was wrong and made without sufficient information.

In what bizarro universe is Owen's offer not absurd grandstanding?