Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud

[realpaladin]

- Quite interesting distinction!

Yep, there's a word for it: confidence.

(Or overconfident if you think there is no reason for me to be so)

 

[Ladewig]

- I think that in addition to the "lying" sub-issue and the "patch" sub-issue, you guys were saying that Rogers had been inept in general -- something to that effect.

For the 31st time:

Jabba, please address the following fact -

- it has been pointed out to you a dozen times that in 2002 when the backing cloth was removed from the shroud for the first time in 500 years, the Vatican’s own science advisor Professor Guiseppe Ghibirti and their own textile expert Dr. Flury-Lemberg examined the shroud in microscopic detail and stated that it was quite certain that there was definitely no patch or repair anywhere near the C14 sample site, and that Rogers was definitely wrong ever to suggest there was any such patch or repair.


Why do you think Ghiberti and Flury-Lemberg have both repeatedly stated that fact?

Answer that please.

 

[Ladewig]

- I'm not asking you to read this whole thing (it's long), but the following is where I go to find Antonacci's critique -- http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/debate.pdf. Fortunate for me, this page also includes the thoughts of Dr. Thibault Heimburger criticizing Antonacci's critique. In fact, it includes a back and forth between the two -- with Heimburger getting in the last word (on that web-page at least).

If you are going to quote or paraphrase material from this 36-page document, would you please include page references?


ETA: if we do follow this sub-sub-sub topic, I can point out a place or two where Heimburger plays fast and loose with the facts.

 

[Jabba]

For the 31st time:

Ladewig,
- That's what I'm trying to do when I refer to the "patch." Dr. Flury-Lemberg et al should be right in the middle of that discussion.
--- Jabba

 

[pakeha]

- I think that in addition to the "lying" sub-issue and the "patch" sub-issue, you guys were saying that Rogers had been inept in general -- something to that effect.

I find Jabba's 'straw man' argumentaive fallacies hilarious.
And the double standard he employs, too.

- I also think that you gave me some references supporting that claim, but I can't remember them -- or, where I can find them.

And?
Is this how you habitually treat posts that refute your claims?
Just 'forget' about them?

 

[Jabba]

Specifics

If you are going to quote or paraphrase material from this 36-page document, would you please include page references?

Ladewig,

- Either I'm just not making myself clear, or you're reading too fast. To me, the following addresses that issue:

- I'm not asking you to read this whole thing (it's long), but the following is where I go to find Antonacci's critique -- http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/debate.pdf. Fortunate for me, this page also includes the thoughts of Dr. Thibault Heimburger criticizing Antonacci's critique. In fact, it includes a back and forth between the two -- with Heimburger getting in the last word (on that web-page at least).
- I'll try to get to specifics in my next post,...

--- Jabba

 

[pakeha]

Ladewig,
- That's what I'm trying to do when I refer to the "patch." Dr. Flury-Lemberg et al should be right in the middle of that discussion.
--- Jabba

Quote the relevant passage, please.
Given your memory lapses, surely it's the least you could do.
You don't want to lead the forum on a wild goose chase, of course.

 

[realpaladin]

Given your memory lapses, surely it's the least you could do.

That reminds me... Jabba, did you get Evernote working yet? If not I can create an account for you (it works with a web interface as well) and PM you the credentials...

 

[Ladewig]

Ladewig,

- Either I'm just not making myself clear, or you're reading too fast. To me, the following addresses that issue:

--- Jabba

Let's back up.

-You said that this document is a source for some of your claims.

-In the previous 19 pages, you have been repeated asked to provide citations

-I simply reminded you that if you do make a claim based on something you read in that paper, you should provide a specific page number.

So, why is asking that future claims be referenced by page numbers inappropriate?

 

[Ladewig]

Ladewig,
- That's what I'm trying to do when I refer to the "patch." Dr. Flury-Lemberg et al should be right in the middle of that discussion.
--- Jabba

May I and every other poster in this thread ask you to briefly sum up your response to the repeatedly asked question? We are not asking for you to do new research, just simply provide an answer to that question in your own words. It should not be a time-consuming task. I figure one to three sentences should be sufficient to help us understand your position? Talking points, if you will.

 

[catsmate]

- I think that in addition to the "lying" sub-issue and the "patch" sub-issue, you guys were saying that Rogers had been inept in general -- something to that effect.

No. Scientists who've examined his work are saying it's inept rubbish, with detailed reasoning.

I also think that you gave me some references supporting that claim, but I can't remember them -- or, where I can find them.

Sigh. You claim that you're engaging in honest debate and you come up with nonsense like this.

-<SNIP>
- I'll try to get to specifics in my next post, but this dialogue between the two certainly makes me think that there are (at least) two reasonable sides to this story -- this is no slam-dunk for Antonacci. And personally (of course), I think that Heimburger wins easily on points (I know what you're going to say, so don't bother).

Your opinion isn't worth anything.
Why not check the science properly rather that relying on your biased opinion.

 

[Jabba]

Evernote

That reminds me... Jabba, did you get Evernote working yet? If not I can create an account for you (it works with a web interface as well) and PM you the credentials...

Paladin,
- No, I didn't.
- Thanks. Yeah. Create an account for me. Though, I'm not sure what a web interface is, or what "PM" means -- Private Message?
--- Jabba

 

[dafydd]

Paladin,
- No, I didn't.
- Thanks. Yeah. Create an account for me. Though, I'm not sure what a web interface is, or what "PM" means -- Private Message?
--- Jabba

Why do you want this obvious fake to be real?

 

[Jabba]

Quotes?

Quote the relevant passage, please.
Given your memory lapses, surely it's the least you could do.
You don't want to lead the forum on a wild goose chase, of course.

Paheka,
- It's not just a single passage -- it's multiple passages and a discussion around them. And, the link I refer to is probably just the beginning of the material to be referenced in the discussion. I gave the link so that you and the others could see what it's all about, before I start trying to argue the case.
--- Jabba

 

[pakeha]

Paheka,
- It's not just a single passage -- it's multiple passages and a discussion around them.

Please quote them in your next posts.
Or at least post links to the pertinent pages.

And, the link I refer to is probably just the beginning of the material to be referenced in the discussion.

Of course you don't expect us to sift through the 36 pages of your link. Please specify the pages you found most relevant.

I gave the link so that you and the others could see what it's all about, before I start trying to argue the case.

'Argue the case'?

 

[realpaladin]

Paladin,
- No, I didn't.
- Thanks. Yeah. Create an account for me. Though, I'm not sure what a web interface is, or what "PM" means -- Private Message?
--- Jabba

Go to: https://www.evernote.com/
Your username is: jrefjabba
Your password will be sent via private message.

 

[Resume]

Why do you want this obvious fake to be real?

I would also like to know why this is so important.

 

[Marduk]

Why do you want this obvious fake to be real?

faith fail

 

[catsmate]

faith fail

I'm going to borrow that, it's an excellent term for this phenomena, one we've seen so often here from believers.

 

[Jabba]

What & Why I Want

Why do you want this obvious fake to be real?

I would also like to know why this is so important.

Dafydd & Resume,
- Obviously, I don't think that the Shroud is an obvious fake.
- Otherwise, I don't have "faith"; I'd like to change that.
--- Jabba