Merged Roosevelt's Rotten Record:Communism, Treachery, Betrayal

[SpringHallConvert]

The idea that the US was isolationist prior to Pearl Harbor is another sad sack meme of the CT whack jobs. And ignorance of logistics leads them to think a two-ocean war was a trivial thing.

If that's true, why did Roosevelt campaign for president in 1940 on a platform geared toward keeping the United States out of the war?

Answer: Because he knew he had to. The American people weren't as big a warmongers in 1941 as they are now.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Intercepting the Japanese fleet prior to a Pearl Harbor attack would have meant that the United States was the aggressor, since it would have put U.S. forces in the position of firing the "first shot". This clearly runs counter to the Roosevelt plan (McCollum memo/Stimson's diary) for selling the war to the American people as a matter of national defense.

The Pearl Harbor "surprise" was instrumental to the Roosevelt plan, so that was the path followed, and, in historical hindsight, it worked. The American people were totally bamboozled (at least the ones not locked up in concentration camps, that is).

So having the AA guns ready and firing at the Japanese aircraft as they approached your base would have been the act of aggression, and not the Japanese invasion of your airspace and flying hundreds of bombers over your Navy Base? riiight.

 

[SpringHallConvert]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184152

I see no solid evidence in that thread. Just a lot of babbling.

Is there anything in particular you'd like to hang your hat on?

 

[SpringHallConvert]

So having the AA guns ready and firing at the Japanese aircraft as they approached your base would have been the act of aggression, and not the Japanese invasion of your airspace and flying hundreds of bombers over your Navy Base? riiight.

Do your realize the absurdity of this question? If the commanders at Pearl were warned in advance to have their AA gunners ready for the Japanese attack that morning, then it would have been clear to everyone that the Roosevelt administration knew the attack was coming and allowed it to happen without air or naval interdiction.

The attack had to happen the way it happened. It had to appear to be a total "surprise". Roosevelt couldn't warn Pearl and he certainly couldn't order an ambush, as that would have made the U.S. the aggressors.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So having the AA guns ready and firing at the Japanese aircraft as they approached your base would have been the act of aggression, and not the Japanese invasion of your airspace and flying hundreds of bombers over your Navy Base? riiight.

The act of war would have occurred when the IJN aircraft crossed into the territorial waters of the US. The P-40s would have had "weapons free" signals at that point and the fun would begin. I imagine the orders would have been "Get the bombers!"

 

[Andy_Ross]

Do your realize the absurdity of this question? If the commanders at Pearl were warned in advance to have their AA gunners ready for the Japanese attack that morning, then it would have been clear to everyone that the Roosevelt administration knew the attack was coming and allowed it to happen without air or naval interdiction.

The attack had to happen the way it happened. It had to appear to be a total "surprise". Roosevelt couldn't warn Pearl and he certainly couldn't order an ambush, as that would have made the U.S. the aggressors.

So defending yourself against an attack is being the aggressor? How are you the aggressor when someone else has just flown a huge force of bombers into your airspace?

 

[ArmillarySphere]

I'm reminded of when the US used to route Blackbird flights over Swedish airspace, ignoring protests. Finally, command had enough and sent a Viggen fighter high enough on afterburners to achieve weapons lock before running low on fuel.

US response was to route the flights elsewhere. The fighter would have been well within its rights to fire.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'm reminded of when the US used to route Blackbird flights over Swedish airspace, ignoring protests. Finally, command had enough and sent a Viggen fighter high enough on afterburners to achieve weapons lock before running low on fuel.

US response was to route the flights elsewhere. The fighter would have been well within its rights to fire.

Tell that to Francis Gary Powers.

 

[Spindrift]

Do your realize the absurdity of this question? If the commanders at Pearl were warned in advance to have their AA gunners ready for the Japanese attack that morning, then it would have been clear to everyone that the Roosevelt administration knew the attack was coming and allowed it to happen without air or naval interdiction.

The attack had to happen the way it happened. It had to appear to be a total "surprise". Roosevelt couldn't warn Pearl and he certainly couldn't order an ambush, as that would have made the U.S. the aggressors.

Of course the attack had to happen the way it happened. It's what happens when one side is surprised.

If Roosevelt knew about the attack why didn't he take full advantage of it? He could have had the carriers and submarines out on a training mission which would have put them in a position to counter attack the Japanese fleet and sink an awful lot of Japanese ships since their planes were at Pearl. He could have had orders issued for anti-aircraft training exercises to coincide with the attack. FDR could have done dozens of things to take advantage of fore-knowledge of the attack and still have the Japanese be the out and out agressor, yet he did NONE of them.

 

[000063]

So having the AA guns ready and firing at the Japanese aircraft as they approached your base would have been the act of aggression, and not the Japanese invasion of your airspace and flying hundreds of bombers over your Navy Base? riiight.

Indeed. Even a repulsed attack would've probably been enough to bring the US into the war.

 

[000063]

So defending yourself against an attack is being the aggressor? How are you the aggressor when someone else has just flown a huge force of bombers into your airspace?

I always love it when discussions reach the "personal dictionary" point, when it becomes clear the CT is not operating in consensus reality.

It's also noted that, for all his bluster, SHC doesn't actually answer the question.

I also like how warning your people that an attack was coming is apparently the same as letting an attack happen.

If that's true, why did Roosevelt campaign for president in 1940 on a platform geared toward keeping the United States out of the war?

Answer: Because he knew he had to. The American people weren't as big a warmongers in 1941 as they are now.

For someone who thinks the government is this omnipotent entity capable of fooling all of the people all of the time, you sure seem to think they are vulnerable to the desires of the people.

 

[Garrison]

Indeed. Even a repulsed attack would've probably been enough to bring the US into the war.

And given the report of the Ward and the radar sighting of the incoming attack it would hardly be difficult to justify an alert. Get up a decent CAP and get the AA gunners on action stations at the very least. I think SHC and co fail to realize that yes you might invite the enemy to strike first but you don't set up a humiliating defeat, in a fact a series of such defeats over the next several months.

 

[Mudcat]

Again, from the top, self-defense is not an act of agression even if the attacker hasn't launched the first shot or if the first shot hadn't landed.

Now, SHC what is it with this? Why are you so gung-ho about "He was looking for any reason to get into the war at any cost"? It would prepare from my perspective that the oppostite was true.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Do your realize the absurdity of this question?

Do you realize the absurdity of your position? Roosevelt wanted to go to war with Germany. GERMANY. Not Japan.

Only a conspiracy theorist would think it's perfectly logical to deliberately spark a war with a powerful military state just to have an excuse to go to war with someone else on the other side of the world.

 

[Border Reiver]

Add to the attack on PH you also had the nearly simultaneous attacks (about a 10 hour time difference) on the Phillipines (a US protectorate), and you have a causus belli - whether the attacks were a surprise or not.

 

[Garrison]

Do you realize the absurdity of your position? Roosevelt wanted to go to war with Germany. GERMANY. Not Japan.

Only a conspiracy theorist would think it's perfectly logical to deliberately spark a war with a powerful military state just to have an excuse to go to war with someone else on the other side of the world.

It does flag up his basic ignorance, all the 'provocation' was going in the Atlantic. And I'm quite sure he won't be able to provide the date or name for the first US Navy ship sunk during WWII, taking the invasion of Poland as the start.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Add to the attack on PH you also had the nearly simultaneous attacks (about a 10 hour time difference) on the Phillipines (a US protectorate), and you have a causus belli - whether the attacks were a surprise or not.

Any "evidence" that Pearl Harbor was a LIHOP could be applied even more effectively to the Phillipines. They saw that attack coming from miles away, and completely bungled their defense...even with their best general in charge.

So, according to CT logic, it HAD to be on purpose. Only problem is...why?

 

[000063]

And given the report of the Ward and the radar sighting of the incoming attack it would hardly be difficult to justify an alert. Get up a decent CAP and get the AA gunners on action stations at the very least. I think SHC and co fail to realize that yes you might invite the enemy to strike first but you don't set up a humiliating defeat, in a fact a series of such defeats over the next several months.

And it would be much better for morale if the attack by the "craven coolies" was beaten off by the brave boys in the Navy.

Do you realize the absurdity of your position? Roosevelt wanted to go to war with Germany. GERMANY. Not Japan.

Only a conspiracy theorist would think it's perfectly logical to deliberately spark a war with a powerful military state just to have an excuse to go to war with someone else on the other side of the world.

And considering that Hitler declared war on the US anyway four days later, there was a-gonna be a dustup. It's not like the US wasn't supporting the allies already.

 

[Garrison]

Any "evidence" that Pearl Harbor was a LIHOP could be applied even more effectively to the Phillipines. They saw that attack coming from miles away, and completely bungled their defense...even with their best general in charge.

I'm sorry but I thought MacArthur was in charge of the Phillipines? Mind you putting him in charge could be seen as an attempt to sabotage the defence...

 

[Andy_Ross]

It does flag up his basic ignorance, all the 'provocation' was going in the Atlantic. And I'm quite sure he won't be able to provide the date or name for the first US Navy ship sunk during WWII, taking the invasion of Poland as the start.

Oo! oo! oo! Waves hand in the air.. Please sir me sir!! I know that one!!