Merged Roosevelt's Rotten Record:Communism, Treachery, Betrayal

[Andy_Ross]

Who says it's "established"? Just because it's in a bunch books doesn't mean it's "established". Tons of conspiracy theories are listed in books. Your conspiracy theory just happens to be the one approved by the U.S. government.



No, it doesn't work that way. Your conspiracy theory doesn't get to be "right" by default. It's nobody's responsibility to prove it wrong. It's your responsibility to prove it right, and none of you have done that. Until you do it's just another conspiracy theory competing among other conspiracy theories.



By the same token, saying you do believe the government isn't enough either.



Correction:

Multiple lines of evidence *which are controlled and disseminated by the U.S. government* support the current record.

This is the functional equivalent of letting a Mafia control the investigation and narrative around a diamond heist and then believing them when they tell you they weren't involved. They can selectively show you evidence that proves they weren't involved, but are you automatically going to believe them?

No, not unless you are a total moron.

So the US Govt is the only source of historical record?

 

[SpringHallConvert]

And your proof for this is what? Your claim.

Who else, other than the U.S. government, has unfettered access to records of U.S. government intelligence assessments, communications, and classified material?

By controlling the release of in-house information, the U.S. government controls the narrative. If the U.S. government claims they had no knowledge of something, you can't disprove it either way because they control the flow of information.

 

[Mudcat]

Can you provide credible evidence for this claim?

Nothing you would accept as credible evidence, I'm certain. I should probably note I only have a passing interest in Pearl Harbor. It's as cut and dried, open and shut case as it gets.

No, you first have to prove the prior claim. How do you really know what actionable intelligence the president received? Remember, we have no choice but to rely on the U.S. government's word here, and if the government did allow the attacks, it's not like they'd willingly admit it or release evidence that they were complicit.

Read again, with comprehension: In absence of any contrary evidence the only reasonable conclusion was that it was a successful sneak attack.

You'll be providing the grounds that sheds reasonable doubt on that statement sometime soon I assume?

 

[Mudcat]

So the US Govt is the only source of historical record?

Why do the CTs fail to consider this point?

 

[Border Reiver]

Except in this case the mafia's record is corroborated by the Yakuza's since the records of the IJN confirm that the attack surprised the Americans.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Except in this case the mafia's record is corroborated by the Yakuza's since the records of the IJN confirm that the attack surprised the Americans.

They were desperately hoping for complete surprise, but the whack jobs claim is that FDR aided and abetted in that surprise by withholding information from Kimmel and Short. The facts say otherwise. It was Kimmel's decision to keep the Fleet in Pearl after receiving warnings of serious ka-ka looming PDQ. The Fleet was in that bathtub because the immediate area commander made that call.

 

[Biscuit]

A 'lack of evidence' leads to 'speculation' and 'theorizing'.

You guys are faced with a lack of evidence, and this means you are speculating and theorizing about what really happened with Roosevelt and Pearl Harbor. You don't know what really happened, you only think you do. You are Pearl Harbor conspiracy theorists who subscribe to the "official" conspiracy theory approved by the U.S. government and court historians.

There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you are honest about it.

Nope. Your claim is that because there is no evidence for your claims it's evidence that your evidence has been concealed. It's just silly.

 

[SpringHallConvert]

Nothing you would accept as credible evidence, I'm certain. I should probably note I only have a passing interest in Pearl Harbor. It's as cut and dried, open and shut case as it gets.

No, not really. It's only open and shut for those who wish to subscribe to the official conspiracy theory. For those who don't, the debate rages on.

Read again, with comprehension: In absence of any contrary evidence the only reasonable conclusion was that it was a successful sneak attack.

Why is it reasonable to conclude that the attack was a surprise? Because the government said so? Unlike you, I don't assume the government told us the truth. Therefore, from my point of view, in absence of any contrary evidence the only reasonable conclusion was that it wasn't a surprise to our government.

You'll be providing the grounds that sheds reasonable doubt on that statement sometime soon I assume?

Right back at you.

 

[SpringHallConvert]

Nope. Your claim is that because there is no evidence for your claims it's evidence that your evidence has been concealed. It's just silly.

False.

I'm claiming we have no way of knowing whether evidence has been concealed or not. You believe it hasn't been while I believe it has been.

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Laton]

Why do the CTs fail to consider this point?

Apparently, not only is the US Govt. the only source of information on the Pearl attack but the government itself is an enormous monolithic entity and the people who would have complied these mythical reports for the President would have never noticed that the government story is a fabrication and mentioned it to anyone.

Leaving SHC's nonsense aside.

It's my understanding that the US viewed war with Japan as inevitable, based on their incursions in China and aggressive posturing in the Pacific. That while an attack was expected, it was the timing and the location that was a surprise. Pearl Harbour was on the list of possible targets but the Philippines was considered a much more likely target.

 

[SpringHallConvert]

Except in this case the mafia's record is corroborated by the Yakuza's since the records of the IJN confirm that the attack surprised the Americans.

How would the IJN really know if the attack surprised our government? How would they have confirmed such a thing?

Just because the commanders, sailors, and airmen at Pearl Harbor were surprised doesn't necessarily mean our government was surprised.

 

[332nd]

Responses since SHC claim: 9

Proof offered by SHC for claim: 0

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Apparently, not only is the US Govt. the only source of information on the Pearl attack but the government itself is an enormous monolithic entity and the people who would have complied these mythical reports for the President would have never noticed that the government story is a fabrication and mentioned it to anyone.

Bingo. They're really that stupid. The fact that Republicans were slathering for FDR's blood and would have jumped on a real "Just Let It Happen"(tm) seems to have escaped them. Of course the Dems and Repubs were and are in bed with each other, any apparent conflict is a construct to confuse the sheeple.

Leaving SHC's nonsense aside.

Done.

It's my understanding that the US viewed war with Japan as inevitable, based on their incursions in China and aggressive posturing in the Pacific. That while an attack was expected, it was the timing and the location that was a surprise. Pearl Harbour was on the list of possible targets but the Philippines was considered a much more likely target.

The timing of the attack, prior to any declaration of war (one wasn't even written yet) certainly contributed to the disaster, but there are those who would say Kimmel and Short should have been ready for an attack even if they didn't expect one.

 

[kookbreaker]

No, not really. It's only open and shut for those who wish to subscribe to the official conspiracy theory. For those who don't, the debate rages on.

Debate? What debate? Saying this is a 'debate' is like saying the local Army base is 'at war' with the end of the target shooting range! Your side of the debate has nothing, nothing at all!

 

[SpringHallConvert]

They were desperately hoping for complete surprise, but the whack jobs claim is that FDR aided and abetted in that surprise by withholding information from Kimmel and Short. The facts say otherwise. It was Kimmel's decision to keep the Fleet in Pearl after receiving warnings of serious ka-ka looming PDQ. The Fleet was in that bathtub because the immediate area commander made that call.

Perhaps the immediate area commander only made that call because he was deliberately kept in the dark about what was really headed his way?

You don't know, you only think you do.

 

[332nd]

Bingo. They're really that stupid. The fact that Republicans were slathering for FDR's blood and would have jumped on a real "Just Let It Happen"(tm) seems to have escaped them. Of course the Dems and Repubs were and are in bed with each other, any apparent conflict is a construct to confuse the sheeple.

Done.

The timing of the attack, prior to any declaration of war (one wasn't even written yet) certainly contributed to the disaster, but there are those who would say Kimmel and Short should have been ready for an attack even if they didn't expect one.

See, that's what I don't get. Ready how?

 

[SpringHallConvert]

Debate? What debate? Saying this is a 'debate' is like saying the local Army base is 'at war' with the end of the target shooting range! Your side of the debate has nothing, nothing at all!

False.

I have just as much as your side, since both sides can only speculate as to what the Roosevelt administration really knew about the oncoming attack.

Your speculative guesses are no better than mine.

 

[Laton]

False.

I have just as much as your side, since both sides can only speculate as to what the Roosevelt administration really knew about the oncoming attack.

Your speculative guesses are no better than mine.

Do I spy a moving goalpost?

We've gone from just Roosevelt himself to the entire administration - an even dumber claim on SHC's part I'd think.

 

[The Dark Lord]

SHC can't prove that I have never seen his mother naked. If he claims that I am lying, he is just speculating. He doesn't really know. And so I win.

Ha, ha, ha!

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

See, that's what I don't get. Ready how?

They were given warnings that the Japanese were ready to move, "in any direction" and to be prepared. That means getting ready for war. Short, however, only focused on sabotage of his own forces, despite the fact that the only reason his troops were on Oahu was to protect the fleet when it was in port. Kimmel increased anti-submarine protection, but kept the Fleet in port. Even worse for Kimmel was the fact that the Japanese only tried the attack because Kimmel had the fleet on "banker's hours" and thus became predictable enough from the IJN to risk the venture.