Stand Your Ground (licence to kill)?

[Xulld]

If the crime rate is high then the logical inference is that doing as you suggest will lower the crime rate, right?

False dichotomy.

It is possible that confronting a criminal in the act of a burglary, even where he is not captured/killed could make him change his target from your neighborhood to another one, or from your house to another within your neighborhood. Thus making it three possibilities, raise, lower, or remain the same.

Not that the core line of reasoning one way or the other is faulty. But thinking that it either lowers or increases the crime rate is a false dichotomy. It may do neither, but still have the desired goal of making that single guy NOT come back to YOUR house. Also crime rates are based on data, data which may or may not capture these changes, yet they may still exist.

^not all that interesting of a line of thinking IMHO, just wanted to point this out.
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What I am curious about:

Do you think Joe Horn should be arrested for challenging a crime?
For going over to his neighbors house?
For shooting robbers who posed a threat?
What exactly?

This thread has exactly two elements.

One an emotional appeal to human value, which glosses over all the subtleties of interaction, and its conclusion is that life is more valuable than property(NP, I actually agree). My problem then? What this means insofar as a persons actions in the night when checking a suspicious bump, or knock, or voice, or sound . . . not sure.

It seems to me what we are really talking about is once you have become suspicious that some illegal action may be taking place (by a person of unknown character), what do you do?

If it is where a person I love may be, I check it out. If I knew some guys where robbing an empty house chances are I would not challenge that.

Now in the Joe Horn case, the biggest beef most people have is that he was asked by the 911 operators to NOT go over to his neighbors house.

What elements of this bother you Randfan?

Ill tell you what elements bother me

A plain clothes police detective responding to the 9-1-1 call arrived at the scene before the shooting, and witnessed the escalation and shootings while remaining in his car.[3]

^That is it . . .

 

[triforcharity]

Yes, that was decided by the courts just a few years ago as I recall. While hunting or fishing we are required to transport firearms according to the Illinois Wildlife Code which is more strict. That requires a case specifically designed as a container for a gun. It could be argued that a glove compartment constitutes such a container, but you might have to convince a judge.

I think you'd have a harder time convincing ANYONE that you were able to fit a .308 or 12ga in your glove box.....

 

[Xulld]

I think you'd have a harder time convincing ANYONE that you were able to fit a .308 or 12ga in your glove box.....

HAHAH, I drive an Expedition, and I am sure a Center Contender in .308 could fit in that center console. lol

Gun laws are funny tho.
I lived in NC for a few years, they want it out in the open where the officer can see it. As long as its open, your legal.

Florida, must be in a container, any latch will do, just as long as no one see's it!

. . .sigh.

 

[triforcharity]

HAHAH, I drive an Expedition, and I am sure a Center Contender in .308 could fit in that center console. lol

Gun laws are funny tho.
I lived in NC for a few years, they want it out in the open where the officer can see it. As long as its open, your legal.

Florida, must be in a container, any latch will do, just as long as no one see's it!

. . .sigh.

Well, yeah, when you mention that, I could damn near fit an M1A1 in THAT center console!!

Florida laws are pretty simple. 3 steps or more away from the driver. Pulling the trigger is considered one.

NC is a little funny too. Just have it on the dash, it's all good.

 

[RandFan]

And explain how acquiescence to criminal activity in a nation where police have no responsibility to prevent crime works to reduce crime rates?

First I never made such a claim. That is you putting words in my mouth.

The preceding attribution to sarge was wrong. I've not a clue how I **** ed up so badly. Wrong week to quit sniffing glue I suppose

 

[The Dark Lord]

Arizona rules are even simpler: There are none.

 

[3point14]

Reading through these threads, from the language that's used, it appears that some people seem to positively relish the prospect of someone breaking into their home so they can shoot them. There's no regret, no remorse in the thought of ending a nother human being's life as a larger red splatter on their paintwork. It's all 'Hell yeah, shoot the criminal' and then get on with our lives.

For me, the prospect of ending another human being's life is so daunting that I could not view it so lightly. Regardless of the status of the person I'm shooting at.

 

[3point14]

Oh come on, that is NOT fair. Your per capital crime rate (1.16) is much, much lower than ours (4.8).... wait, um, never mind.

Oh jeez, ours is the highest of most industrialized nations. I wonder if we are doing it wrong.

I have a vague, unrealised theory that Americans just like violence and guns and get all gooey when they get to be all violent and gunny.

 

[3point14]

I don't understand. I see someone breaking into my neighbors home and I must assume the best course of action is to go out and confront them?

I've been a car accident and that informed me about the relative risks of cars....

Yup. Erring on the side of caution you shoot them. Two shots at centre of mass. It's the only way to be sure.

Of course, if it's just the families daughter's illicit lover, then there may be consequenses to you shooting that bloke with the ladder, but best to shoot him to be sure.

 

[The Dark Lord]

Reading through these threads, from the language that's used, it appears that some people seem to positively relish the prospect of someone breaking into their home so they can shoot them. There's no regret, no remorse in the thought of ending a nother human being's life as a larger red splatter on their paintwork. It's all 'Hell yeah, shoot the criminal' and then get on with our lives.

For me, the prospect of ending another human being's life is so daunting that I could not view it so lightly. Regardless of the status of the person I'm shooting at.

I don't want to kill anyone. But I doubt that killing some low life that broke into my home would bother me that much.

 

[3point14]

I am sitting in our computer room which looks straight down the hallway to the only two entry doors to our house. At hand (well, due to space next my foot) is a Taurus .357, six shot, all the bullets Black Talons (picked up the day they went off the market), truly at hand are two folders with the tension spring locks and large blades well sharpened. and six feet away is a Crawford Survival staff in the spear mode. This is not the only armed room in my house - where my wife is right now has the ParaOrd. LDA .45 with the mag in it topped (and the chambered round matching ) Black Talons. There is a second, more viciously set up Crawford staff there and a real, normal spear. Wife isn't as good as me with the devices, but she is a match for the kind of mother assaulting illegitimate slime eaters that might choose to do a house assault in this area. I do not actually expect this to happen (thus no shotgun mentioned or present. If I actually start worrying I will get a couple of 12's) but........

If my house is assaulted, I'll post a clipping of the body count for you. I suspect others of we "internet warriors" can quite accurately say the same.

See, this is what I mean. I'm sure I'm wrong, but the gleeful list of different ways you can mutilate, maim and kill an intruder really does make it seem to me like you're wishing for it to happen, just so you can unleash all that hardware.

 

[Resume]

See, this is what I mean. I'm sure I'm wrong, but the gleeful list of different ways you can mutilate, maim and kill an intruder really does make it seem to me like you're wishing for it to happen, just so you can unleash all that hardware.

You don't wish for that, I guarantee it. No matter how gooey of an gun-loving American you might imagine some of us to be.

 

[3point14]

Which, by the way, was why my grandparents left your fine peace-loving country, so as not to get gassed with Zyklon-B.

Was that really necessary? How did it further the discussion? What merit does that statement have in the context of this conversation?

 

[lionking]

I don't want to kill anyone. But I doubt that killing some low life that broke into my home would bother me that much.

So using disproportionate force doesn't bother you? Interesting.

Is it Internet Tough Guy month in the US? It seems so going by some of the recent contributions to the forum.

 

[3point14]

I don't want to kill anyone. But I doubt that killing some low life that broke into my home would bother me that much.

That's my disconnect.

I really don't care what they've done to deserve it and who they are, taking a human life for me is a big deal.

I cannot wrap my head around the thought process that ends up anywhere other than that.

 

[3point14]

You don't wish for that, I guarantee it. No matter how gooey of an gun-loving American you might imagine some of us to be.

And again, to me that seems written to positively relish the thought of shooting someone. It also comes with absolute certainty that you're going to be the winner in this firefight. You've guaranteed it. How are you so certain?

 

[RobDegraves]

I have a vague, unrealised theory that Americans just like violence and guns and get all gooey when they get to be all violent and gunny.

Actually that is far more than just a vague and unrealized theory.

I have made somewhat of a study of violence, since it coincides with a number of my interests (I'm a medieval historian and I teach martial arts for example).

Keep in mind that what I am about to say is just a generalization and does not mean that everyone is the same.



As a society we LOVE violence... as long as it doesn't happen to us or people that we know.

We watch violent shows, read about violence with glee and slow down when there is an accident hoping to see some guy splattered on the pavement. Empathy is an interesting emotion. It generally relates to us being able to imagine the same thing happening to us and then feeling bad for the person it is happening to. However, in most cases in the western world, our experience of violence is limited, so our empathy tends to be limited. When people encounter real violence, their reaction vary greatly. Sometimes they end up with more empathy, sometimes less.

One thing that is a constant with countries where war is endemic, they all wish it would stop, though there are many reasons why it won't. That is because the violence is likely to affect them at some point and they fear it for good reason but those who profit from the violence have little to no empathy.... until it happens to them.

Americans love guns, because it gives them the ability to kill, and what could be more interesting than that when you are jaded? However, few of them ever think that they might end up shot or dead. I know this from countless students, when people imagine a fight, they imagine themselves hitting the other person, perhaps a nice ko like in the movies, but they do not imagine themselves bleeding on the sidewalk and hoping someone will call an ambulance (though women are often an exception to this, since they are more often victims of violence than instigators).

You often see this in martial arts. Few people realize how hard it can be to organize a fight tournament, especially a full contact one. I was once scheduled to fight in a tournament that had around 50 people signed up. Only 16 actually showed up and the organizers were trying to figure out how to fill up the time. It's one thing to imagine winning a fight, it's another to actually step into a fight where you know the other guy stands a good chance of beating you up.


Overall, violence is fun... until it happens to us.

 

[The Dark Lord]

So using disproportionate force doesn't bother you? Interesting.

That you consider it disproportional doesn't bother me. I don't know what a low life who broke into my home would be there for or if he has a weapon or what. I value my life and the lives of my loved ones infinitely more than his so I am shooting unless I am sure I don't need to. And this would be completely legal. Don't like it? Tough ****.

 

[Resume]

So using disproportionate force doesn't bother you? Interesting.

How and when do you determine what's proportionate? In my case it was announced that I was going to be killed, my body dumped in an alley off Armitage. By that time, with a large (illegal) knife at my throat, it was too late to make any decision about proportion.

 

[Resume]

And again, to me that seems written to positively relish the thought of shooting someone. It also comes with absolute certainty that you're going to be the winner in this firefight. You've guaranteed it. How are you so certain?

You're reading too much into it.