JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

[HSienzant]

Actually, I've just watched the video interview again and there appears to be either some confusion on the producer's part and/or some dishonest editing. Connolly talks about shuffling in his seat to get comfortable, which I believe occurred before or around the time of the left turn into Dealy Plaza. He states that he heard the first shot immediately thereafter, putting the limo much farther up the road than the corresponding section of the Zapruder film shows in the video.

Connolly's turning to the right that is shown in the Zapruder film now, after more viewing, appears to be his reaction to being hit. You can actually detect him flinching immediately before he turns at exactly the same time as Kennedy reacts to being hit.

So, what Connolly describes in the interview as his turning to the right after hearing the first shot seems to have been ascribed to an unrelated part of the Zapruder film showing him turning to the right as a reaction to being hit by the same bullet that first hit Kennedy. As rightly pointed out by Hank:


Sorry for any inconvenience I might have caused there. All seems very clear now, and Robert has obviously fallen hook, line and sinker for what, admittedly, had me questioning for a while, before I saw it for what it really is.

BTW - is that a deliberately dishonest piece of editing or not?

Yes, you got it. I was about to write a long piece explaining why the voiceover does not necessarily go with the video at the point they are aligned. But it seems you have figured it out on your own.

When Connally is turned half in his seat and appears to be looking full at the President, he's already a victim of a gunshot wound that went through his trunk, through his wrist, and struck his leg. He is probably in shock, and although he appears to be looking at the president, his thoughts and his focus are most likely on his own wounds and the pain he is feeling. That is why he fails to remember looking at the President. Connally's turn to the right (which he said came after the first shot) approximately coincides with the little girl running on Elm coming to a stop. Whether she is reacting to a shot, I don't know, I am just using that as a handy reference point. As you note, that is further back up Elm street and earlier in the sequence than Robert believes. If the shot was fired at approximately frame 160, then the second shot would be at Z224 - nearly 3.2 seconds after the first shot. This shot wounded both men. The third shot then struck JFK in the head in Z313, 4.8 seconds after the second shot.

Here's a good link to the Z-film without a lot of narration. It doesn't tell you what you should see, unlike the version Robert cited. There are versions in regular speed as well as slow motion, as well as versions showing the full frame as well as zoomed images centered on the two men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q91RZko5Gw

Hank

 

[Southwind17]

Here's a good link to the Z-film without a lot of narration. It doesn't tell you what you should see, unlike the version Robert cited. There are versions in regular speed as well as slow motion, as well as versions showing the full frame as well as zoomed images centered on the two men.

Thanks Hank.

Have to say (and I've thought this for a while), LHO seems to have been darned lucky: first shot completely misses; second shot (farther away) hits Kennedy in the back, say a good 250mm lower than his head; third shot (farthest away) kaboom - right on the nail!

I suppose as the limo moved farther down Dealey Plaza the inclination of the rifle progressively reduced, meaning corresondingly reduced tracking, and hence accuracy, during the aim/fire sequence.

Still think he was a lucky SOB, though, given the adrenalin flow he must surely have been experiencing. Not disimilar to game hunting, though, I guess!

 

[Worm]

You have to wonder about these amazing photo manipulators that can make a pixel-perfect composite that leaves no detectable artifacts, but neglect to include the right chin.

 

[Robert Prey]

Uh no. None of those guys has offered a single piece of evidence that holds up under inspection that proves anything, other than that they fail photo 101.

Wanna try again or will you just continue to wave your hands?

The "evidence" is in the square chins, the impossibly refracted shadows, the head too big for the body in one pic, the body too big for the head in others, the arm too short for an arm, etc, etc., etc.

 

[Southwind17]

Actually, I've just watched the video interview again and there appears to be either some confusion on the producer's part and/or some dishonest editing. Connolly talks about shuffling in his seat to get comfortable, which I believe occurred before or around the time of the left turn into Dealy Plaza. He states that he heard the first shot immediately thereafter, putting the limo much farther up the road than the corresponding section of the Zapruder film shows in the video.

Connolly's turning to the right that is shown in the Zapruder film now, after more viewing, appears to be his reaction to being hit. You can actually detect him flinching immediately before he turns at exactly the same time as Kennedy reacts to being hit.

So, what Connolly describes in the interview as his turning to the right after hearing the first shot seems to have been ascribed to an unrelated part of the Zapruder film showing him turning to the right as a reaction to being hit by the same bullet that first hit Kennedy.

So, Robert, assuming you've been keeping with the program, we've now successfully interpreted the very video interview that you posted supposedly in your favour, and concluded that it constitutes convincing evidence of just three shots being fired. Interesting that the time intervals between the three shots are wholly consistent with a single shooter, that the first shot (given the location of the limo) almost inevitably originated from behind the limo, and that the second shot conclusively originated from behind the limo, don't you think?! Put all of that together ... QED (sorry ... I realise Latin's not exactly your strongest point).

 

[Southwind17]

The "evidence" is in the square chins, the impossibly refracted shadows, the head too big for the body in one pic, the body too big for the head in others, the arm too short for an arm, etc, etc., etc.

Robert, when oh when are you going to learn that there is no evidence inherent in the B/Y photos; they are, after all, only images. The evidence to which you allude lies in the interpretation, the veracity of which depends on the skill of the interpreter - a skill that you and your cited so-called experts have convincingly demonstrated you are completely devoid of.

BTW - how is your definition of 'expert' coming along?!

 

[LSSBB]

The "evidence" is in the square chins, the impossibly refracted shadows, the head too big for the body in one pic, the body too big for the head in others, the arm too short for an arm, etc, etc., etc.

There you go confusing "evidence" with "imagination" again.

 

[Robert Prey]

For Hank's benefit:

Gov. Connally's Warren Commission Testimony

Mr. Specter.
As the automobile turned left onto Elm from Houston, what did occur there, Governor?
Governor Connally.
We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street.
We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.
So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back.
Mr. Specter.
What is the best estimate that you have as to the time span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone hitting you in the back which you just described?
Governor Connally.
A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. These were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that I took, and I knew I had been hit, and I immediately assumed, because of the amount of blood, and in fact, that it had obviously passed through my chest. that I had probably been fatally hit.

* * *

It's the same story he's told time and again, in interviews, and on videos till the day he died. He was hit by a separate shot, after the first shot that he heard. And no McAdams gobbledeegook about magic bullet trajectories can alter that fact.

 

[Robert Prey]

Name just one of these "caught" forgers. Tell me when they were tried, and convicted. You cannot, because no forgers were ever caught, because there was no forgery in the back yard photos.

Hank

Who is going to catch and charge the government forgers? The same ones who did the forging? Would they rat out themselves? Actually, there is more than just a strong suspicion of forgery of the autopsy photos and x-rays by the very people who produced them, and then rejected the ones in the archives as forgeries. And then there is the matter of the fellow in charge of the Audio-Visual Dept. at Bethesda by the name of Willam Bruce Pitzer who showed the real autopsy photos to an associate, Petty Office Dennis David, which pictured a small bullet wound in the temple, and a large blow-out in the back of K's head. And we have the person ( Green Beret Special Forces Warfare Center soldier Lt. Col Dan Marvinj) who was asked by CIA to murder him, but declined. And the fact that just before retirement Pitzer was indeed found dead of a gunshot wound.

 

[jargon buster]

the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. These were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that I took,

Robert what reached him first the bullet in his back or the bang in his ears?

 

[RoboTimbo]

The "evidence" is in the square chins, the impossibly refracted shadows, the head too big for the body in one pic, the body too big for the head in others, the arm too short for an arm, etc, etc., etc.

How do looney allegations magically turn into "evidence"? LOL. It must be embarrassing for you to be spanked so soundly in public.

 

[Robert Prey]

Robert, when oh when are you going to learn that there is no evidence inherent in the B/Y photos; they are, after all, only images. The evidence to which you allude lies in the interpretation, the veracity of which depends on the skill of the interpreter - a skill that you and your cited so-called experts have convincingly demonstrated you are completely devoid of.

BTW - how is your definition of 'expert' coming along?!

Besides all of the evidence of anomalies heretofore cited, there is the question as to why, if the photos are authentic, would Oswald ever want to have such pictures taken? To prove he was a Commie Nut who while reading Commie Literature, he sports a pistol and a rifle in which he contemplates the murder of President and a police officer? The obvious Patsy incriminating set-up is just too perfect.

 

[Southwind17]

It's the same story he's told time and again, in interviews, and on videos till the day he died. He was hit by a separate shot, after the first shot that he heard. And no McAdams gobbledeegook about magic bullet trajectories can alter that fact.

Robert, wake up! NOBODY IS DENYING THAT CONNOLLY WAS HIT BY THE SECOND SHOT!

 

[Southwind17]

Besides all of the evidence of anomalies heretofore cited ...

What evidence of anomalies, Robert? YOUR unskilled observations are NOT credible evidence, Robert. I'm sorry, they simply are not, and neither are those of anybody similarly unskilled.

... there is the question as to why, if the photos are authentic, would Oswald ever want to have such pictures taken? To prove he was a Commie Nut who while reading Commie Literature, he sports a pistol and a rifle in which he contemplates the murder of President and a police officer? The obvious Patsy incriminating set-up is just too perfect.

So now, in addition to pretending to be a photo analsyst expert, you expect us to accept that you're also a skilled psychologist and human behavioural expert?! Please don't flatter yourself, Robert. Bottom line is your imagination and ego know no bounds. Plain and simple.

 

[Tomtomkent]

For Hank's benefit:

Gov. Connally's Warren Commission Testimony

Mr. Specter.
As the automobile turned left onto Elm from Houston, what did occur there, Governor?
Governor Connally.
We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street.
We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.
So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back.
Mr. Specter.
What is the best estimate that you have as to the time span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone hitting you in the back which you just described?
Governor Connally.
A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. These were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that I took, and I knew I had been hit, and I immediately assumed, because of the amount of blood, and in fact, that it had obviously passed through my chest. that I had probably been fatally hit.

* * *

It's the same story he's told time and again, in interviews, and on videos till the day he died. He was hit by a separate shot, after the first shot that he heard. And no McAdams gobbledeegook about magic bullet trajectories can alter that fact.

But that still doesn't support your claims other than he jumped to hasty conclusions. It doesnot claim he was struck by a seperate bullet, and his statements make it clear he revised that opinion. Or do you also claim he was struck fatally in the chest, he described in that statement?

 

[Tomtomkent]

Besides all of the evidence of anomalies heretofore cited, there is the question as to why, if the photos are authentic, would Oswald ever want to have such pictures taken? To prove he was a Commie Nut who while reading Commie Literature, he sports a pistol and a rifle in which he contemplates the murder of President and a police officer? The obvious Patsy incriminating set-up is just too perfect.

What evidence for anomalies? You mean evidence of features in photos that are repeatable and explainable with minimal research? Why can't you show me the artefacts of alteration itself? Why can't you show me the indicators of paint, cut emulsion or cut negatives?

Your complaint is that there is just TOO much evidence you are wrong?

Really? So not only do we know there wont be any evidence to support your assertions as it is "dead and buried" but we should ignore the evidence there is because it is too good?


Robert none of your anomalies are unexpected or unexplainable. It is impossible to compossite physical images (and often non physical computer based images…) with out leaving artefacts of the process. That is evidence. What you offer is not, by no lesser factor than being replicable with out being a composite.

 

[infocusinc]

The "evidence" is in the square chins, the impossibly refracted shadows, the head too big for the body in one pic, the body too big for the head in others, the arm too short for an arm, etc, etc., etc.

Well, as we have seen the square chin is no longer evidence. Man up Robert.

The shadows work just fine as both VPA and a really nice 3d model has shown. Your bad attempt to show otherwise was a complete failure.

AS for the head and body sizes, please show me an example of ANYONE who has used real methods to check the size. As you well know the examples you will surely cite get it wrong because they attempt to re size a photo and then use it to "measure" another. This is faulty methodology. Then they attempt to take an object within the same photograph and attempt measure another. Again very faulty methods. The problem Robert, is once again these folks, and you fail photography 101...PERSPECTIVE!!!

Like I said Robert, you are in WAY over your head, and the "experts" you cite have either no real photography experience, have recanted their claims, or simply have not investigated the subject in detail.

Deal with it Robert, you will never win this one.

 

[EventHorizon]

People wonder why we feed the trolls. I'd say infocusinc's post above is a perfect reason to do it. I know nothing about photography and that experiment is fascinating to me. I'd never have seen it if the trolls weren't being fed so to speak. Thank you for that infocusinc. Putting the E in JREF.

 

[HSienzant]

For Hank's benefit:

Gov. Connally's Warren Commission Testimony

Mr. Specter.
As the automobile turned left onto Elm from Houston, what did occur there, Governor?
Governor Connally.
We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street.
We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.
So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back.
Mr. Specter.
What is the best estimate that you have as to the time span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone hitting you in the back which you just described?
Governor Connally.
A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. These were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that I took, and I knew I had been hit, and I immediately assumed, because of the amount of blood, and in fact, that it had obviously passed through my chest. that I had probably been fatally hit.

* * *

It's the same story he's told time and again, in interviews, and on videos till the day he died. He was hit by a separate shot, after the first shot that he heard. And no McAdams gobbledeegook about magic bullet trajectories can alter that fact.

He was hit by the second shot; that we agree upon. You keep saying he insisted he was hit by a shot separate from the one that hit JFK, but you haven't quoted him yet saying that. all you quote him saying is that he was hit by the second shot. Please read this until you understand the difference between what you are saying (separate hit) and what I am saying (second shot).

Let me know if you understand the difference.

Note that what you quoted above is Connally saying he was hit by the second bullet. I agree with that, that is not in dispute. Nowhere have you quoted Connally saying he was hit by a bullet different from the one that struck JFK; for that you need Nellie. But you already dismissed Nellie's observations, so you've pretty much eliminated your best witness.

Nellie is irrelevant. She didn't get shot.

You are simply assuming what you have to prove; that JFK was hit by the first shot. And you've already admitted that JFK might not have been hit by the first shot, so your job just became that much tougher.

The first shot that hit JFK was not necessarily the first shot that was shot.

 

[HSienzant]

For Hank's benefit:

...the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. These were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that I took,

Yes, yes. I've seen that quote at least a hundred times in conspiracy books.

It's an accurate quote.

But they are lying to you all the same.

Because it's not the whole truth.

Because Connally estimated how many seconds passed during the shooting; and his estimate is NEVER quoted by those same conspiracy authors. Why? Because they interested in selling books, not finding the assassins. And unfortunately, some people - can you believe it - actually swallow that stuff and never bother to check for themselves.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the timespan between the first shot which you heard and the shot which you heretofore characterized as the third shot?
Governor CONNALLY. It was a very brief span of time; oh, I would have to say a matter of seconds. I don't know, 10, 12 seconds. It was extremely rapid, so much so that again I thought that whoever was firing must be firing with an automatic rifle because of the rapidity of the shots; a very short period of time.

That's right, Connally estimated three shots in 10 to 12 seconds!

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/comp1.htm

Any particular reason you didn't bother to quote that time estimate, Robert?
I can see only two:
1. You weren't aware it existed.
2. You felt it destroyed the whole point of automatic fire.

I think I know why conspiracy authors withhold that info, it destroys the whole house of cards theory they are trying to sell. I'm just not sure why you did. Please advise.

PS: The time span from frame 160 (about the time most lone nutters believe the first shot was fired) to frame 313 (the last shot) was (at 18.3 frames per second) about 8.4 seconds. You can see above that Connally estimated 10 to 12 seconds for the three shots, which, all things considered, is an excellent estimate (he wasn't off by a factor of ten or anything like that).