Merged Roosevelt's Rotten Record:Communism, Treachery, Betrayal

[Hans]

You don't have any information. That's the whole problem. All you have is propaganda and opinions dressed up as "facts" when they are really not.

Now prove your conspiracy theory or concede the point, sweetie.

Ah no proof provided

I take that as your concession. One more defeat for the troll

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yes it was luck that US didn't lose its two carriers too. The Japanese thought they had gotten a carrier by mistaking the target ship Utah

Um, even the pilot that hit Utah knew he'd made a mistake. They were told to avoid her but in the heat of battle things can get a little confused. Fuchida was highly upset when he saw that attack.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Back after a few pots of coffee. 4:18 AM here.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Even the Royal Navy that invented the Aircraft Carrier and had a number of modern armoured deck carriers saw them as support ships, they were employed in the early war on Anti Submarine patrol.
Commanders of all the navies thought in terms of Battle Fleets. If carriers had been seen as the main weapon why were modern Battleships still being laid down and constructed? What the Admiralty was worried about was always a lack of Battleships until well into the war.

 

[SpringHallConvert]

Um... no. In a court of law it is the prosecuter (that would be you, by the way) that has to provide evidence.

Hey, genius, this isn't a court of law. This isn't a trial.

You guys can't be this dense, can you?

 

[Laton]

Commanders of all the navies thought in terms of Battle Fleets. If carriers had been seen as the main weapon why were modern Battleships still being laid down and constructed? What the Admiralty was worried about was always a lack of Battleships until well into the war.

The Japanese followed the same kind of thinking.

Look at their Yamato class BB's

Yamato was ordered in March 1937, laid down 4 November 1937, launched 8 August 1940, and commissioned 16 December 1941.

Musashi was ordered in March 1937, laid down 29 March 1938, launched 1 November 1940, and commissioned 5 August 1942

Shinano was laid down in June 1940, in mid-1941 construction temporarily halted to allow personnel and equipment to be utilized for other naval projects in response to approaching hostilities.
1942, after the Battle of Midway, decision made to convert Shinano's unfinished hull into an aircraft carrier. Launched on 8 October 1944.

So even after Pearl Harbor and the proof of what carrier-borne aircraft were capable of, the IJN was still going to build a third Yamato class battleship until their losses at Midway forced a change.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

After Washington the US commissioned:
South Dakota
Indiana
Massachusetts
Alabama
Iowa
Missouri
Wisconsin
New Jersey
and a few "Large Cruisers", basically small battleships with 12" gun batteries.

One Iowa and an entire class of BBs meant to outclass the Yamatos were canceled when it was clear they wouldn't be needed.

 

[tsig]

Or furiously googling the battleships war records.

You give him too much credit, regurgitation is his forte.

 

[kookbreaker]

Hey, genius, this isn't a court of law. This isn't a trial.

You still need to provide evidence. Hint: essentially saying 'nuh-uh!' is not evidence.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Even the Royal Navy that invented the Aircraft Carrier and had a number of modern armoured deck carriers saw them as support ships, they were employed in the early war on Anti Submarine patrol.
Commanders of all the navies thought in terms of Battle Fleets. If carriers had been seen as the main weapon why were modern Battleships still being laid down and constructed? What the Admiralty was worried about was always a lack of Battleships until well into the war.

And even though they had carried out the Taranto raid which with hindsight was the game-changer, the RN sacrificed Prince of Wales and Repulse by sending them to the defence of Singapore ahead of any carrier support. If they had decided the age of the battleship without carrier protection was over, they would never have thrown those ships away.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I've never ever put anyone on ignore. But I'm wavering, as this could be a really fascinating thread, only spoiled by the "All your facts are lies so nyaaah nyaaah I win" remarks.

 

[Border Reiver]

Nope. This is a myth.

This is the Naval Doctrine Manual published in 1944.


See Chapter 12 - Carriers are not the cetral part of the plan - the vision is for aircraft to locate and fix the enemy fleet while the fighting ships engage and destroy.

 

[Mudcat]

Hey, genius, this isn't a court of law. This isn't a trial.

You guys can't be this dense, can you?

No it isn't a court of law, for which you should very much be greatful.

You are still the accusing party to the burden of proof (the burden to provide evidence needed to support your accusations) is on you, the accuser. You may start providing said evidence any time now.

 

[000063]

This is the Naval Doctrine Manual published in 1944.


See Chapter 12 - Carriers are not the cetral part of the plan - the vision is for aircraft to locate and fix the enemy fleet while the fighting ships engage and destroy.

Nope. You can't use a government source. Even when it's something that no one would have any reason to fake WRT to the alleged conspiracy, and there were, at the very least, thousands of people who have read the relevant section of the manual. Heck, you can probably find a few physical copies floating around.

/SHC logic

 

[000063]

No it isn't a court of law, for which you should very much be greatful.

You are still the accusing party to the burden of proof (the burden to provide evidence needed to support your accusations) is on you, the accuser. You may start providing said evidence any time now.

I'm trying to imagine a prosecutor who refuses to present evidence and just keeps saying the defense can't prove anything. Even Phoenix Wright's prosecutors are better than that.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Nope. You can't use a government source. Even when it's something that no one would have any reason to fake WRT to the alleged conspiracy, and there were, at the very least, thousands of people who have read the relevant section of the manual. Heck, you can probably find a few physical copies floating around.

I'm currently working on "USN Fleet Problem XX, 1939". The author of this work thinks CVs will be so threatened by heavy land-based bombers as to be of no use in the coming war. The last section is "Well Aircraft Carriers Survive".

 

[Biscuit]

You want the truth about FDR well here you go.

 

[000063]

...
But I've always been contrary like that. I'm half Scottish and half-Southern US - and I can't stand post-Culloden boo-hoo pity parties, and I want to kick every 'lost causer' in the head.

So, stereotypically, you're a) really cheap, and b)own a lot of guns?

 

[000063]

What good would it do you? It's like trying to explain calculus to a brick wall in here.

Which is remarkable, because every time you've tried to "explain" anything at all, you got trounced. And so, you rationalize it as the flaw being on the side of the people you're talking to, rather than your own viewpoint and/or explanation.

 

[kookbreaker]

So, stereotypically, you're a) really cheap, and b)own a lot of guns?

Cheap guns, yes.