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On 9/11, WTC7 Collapse Was Firemen's Concern (controlled demolition debunked)

Still no proof from the government truthers. They can't find a single building that collapsed due to fire in the manner that WTC7 did.

Government trollers.
 
Find me another fire-based collapse of a steel-frame building like WTC7. Until you can, controlled demolition is just as likely to have occurred as a fire-based collapse.

Sorry.
Hi Spring,
Have you seen my video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsjfSG69Pik
Jeremy Hammond and others say the Delft Building is a bad comparison to WTC7. It's true that it's smaller, and it's not pure steel-framed, it's steel-reinforced concrete, which as the experts say is even harder to bring down by fire. Also, one major part of the building came down, other parts of the building (including the part behind the collapsed section) stayed standing, so you could say that there was no global collapse. But looking at the collapse of the entire section that DID go down, you can see: 1) it came mostly straight down, as gravity will do. 2) It fell real fast. 3) Fire alone brought it down. Thankfully, such global collapses of even part of a building like this are rare. BUT THEY HAPPEN.

Have you seen my explanation of how Building 7's collapse happened nqturally?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MER5PhIDt0
As a bonus you can also look at the summary of what NIST said about Building 7's collapse, a presentation Richard Gage and I made together in preparation for our debate last March 6 2011: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv06LjVGC6Q

I'm assuming your questions about how Building 7 could have collapsed at freefall are not rhetorical. If you really want the truth, I hope these videos will help you in your search. Good luck!

Yours for unity of both sides,
Chris
 
Chris - to your knowledge, has Richard Gage at least mentioned in passing a theory on how these magical explosives survived impact, fireball and subsequent fires?

It would stand to reason that if truthers can't get by that (and they can't) all the other arguments are moot.

Not a single truther here has the spine to answer that one, so I thought maybe your buddy had a theory.


ETA - don't get into it with SHC. It's an even bigger waste of time than MM, ergo, et all.....
 
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Hi Noah,

I made this assertion (about the impossibility of CD in a raging fire) in my radio and in my personal debate with Gage, and of course I made it again in my YouTube videos. I consider it one of the strongest arguments against CD. I don't recall any direct answer from Richard in any of these exchanges.

There is a new re-rebuttal website going up soon that has AE911Truth rebuttals to my 238 reasons for natural collapse from my YouTube videos. On this general issue, my summary is as follows: "They can't tear down the world's tallest buildings in secret in an entirely new way while a raging fire is going on, tossing in two crashing 767s to randomize structural damage and make the feat even more virtuosic."

The response on that site (incomplete as of now and not released publicly) is this: "If the US technicians can go to the Moon six times, and create the Atom Bomb in secret (not even Vice President Truman knew), we cannot say what can be done in secret. Many tests could have been done in top secret locations."

Not too impressive an answer, in my opinion. As I noted in my videos, even Tom Sullivan, a rare former CD worker who believes in 9/11 CD, told me personally that demolition devices would have to be away from the fires for them to work. That claim from someone on their side is in my videos and in my debate, but no, to my memory Gage has not provided an answer, and the response above on that rebuttal website under construction is the collective wisdom and intellectual firepower of five 9/11 Truth activists.
 
Hi Noah,

I made this assertion (about the impossibility of CD in a raging fire) in my radio and in my personal debate with Gage, and of course I made it again in my YouTube videos. I consider it one of the strongest arguments against CD. I don't recall any direct answer from Richard in any of these exchanges.

There is a new re-rebuttal website going up soon that has AE911Truth rebuttals to my 238 reasons for natural collapse from my YouTube videos. On this general issue, my summary is as follows: "They can't tear down the world's tallest buildings in secret in an entirely new way while a raging fire is going on, tossing in two crashing 767s to randomize structural damage and make the feat even more virtuosic."

The response on that site (incomplete as of now and not released publicly) is this: "If the US technicians can go to the Moon six times, and create the Atom Bomb in secret (not even Vice President Truman knew), we cannot say what can be done in secret. Many tests could have been done in top secret locations."

Not too impressive an answer, in my opinion. As I noted in my videos, even Tom Sullivan, a rare former CD worker who believes in 9/11 CD, told me personally that demolition devices would have to be away from the fires for them to work. That claim from someone on their side is in my videos and in my debate, but no, to my memory Gage has not provided an answer, and the response above on that rebuttal website under construction is the collective wisdom and intellectual firepower of five 9/11 Truth activists.

Now, the problem with the hilited portion, in my eyes, is mostly that BUILDING something can be done in secret. For instance, like a bomb. However, we are talking about items that have never been used to perform a CD being used FLAWLESSLY their first time around. Leaving no trace of their existence.

Let's not be naive here, I know they didn't create a 110 story skyscraper to demo a few times in order to get things properly taken care of. Also, that's just 1 part of the impossible plot. You also have to figure out how to demo building 1 to run into 7. Impossible, no matter what Kool-Aid you drink.
 
Indeed.


Just another ignorant hand-waving from the truthers. Yea, you might be able to hide the A-Bomb from Truman, but I'm thinking he knew about it when they used it on Hiroshima.

Richard Gage is no more intelligent than any of our resident truthers here. He's a total, complete, and utter idiot.
 
Still no proof from the government truthers. They can't find a single building that collapsed due to fire in the manner that WTC7 did.

Government trollers.
How can anyone give you proof if you fail to tell us what you consider proof.

Let me guess. You consider it a win when someone can't answer a challenge you fail to present. Yeah, You win.

:rolleyes:
 
Because I'm asking for your opinion. Let me be more clear.

SHC, what do you think set WTC 7 on fire?

Maybe debris from WTC1 and WTC2, maybe not.

I don't know and neither do you.

For all you know the fires were set deliberately as a smokescreen for the controlled demolition of the building.
 
Dancing_Troll.gif
 
Maybe debris from WTC1 and WTC2, maybe not.

I don't know and neither do you.
Actually, I do.

For all you know the fires were set deliberately as a smokescreen for the controlled demolition of the building.

Which leads to the question of how They knew that the collapse of WTC 1 would give them an excuse for the fires starting in the first place, and not disrupt these alleged explosives.

Even Truthers who claim the buildings were bought down "in their own footprint" are not generally nutty enough to posit that They could aim 1's collapse with such precision as to be absolutely certain whatever demo charges (used here to refer to any combination of *thermite/explosives) They had setup in WTC 7 wouldn't have the wiring severed, and/or damaged beyond repair. I have literally never seen a Truther willing to discuss this matter in any detail.

Which would mean that they just happened to have the charges in the building, and they just happened to not be disrupted when WTC 1 fell on it. Very lucky for them.

And, of course, any CD theory requires one ignore the fact that thermite cannot cut through steel with split-second timing, not can explosives break steel without being audible across New York and breaking windows for blocks around.

But carry on sticking your fingers in your ears and throwing out wild speculation, then calling everyone else's evidence-supported theories speculation. We all know you have no sense of self-awareness whatsoever, and will happily contradict yourself from earlier in order to shore up your present position, such as your Double--sorry--Triple standard about using government evidence. (Al Qaeda/Northwoods/Pearl Harbour)
 
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Or to just spend five minutes learning how the square-cube law means scale models are useless for more than purposes of approximation.

Interestingly enough, it's also relevant to why fantasy-style giants couldn't really exist.

63,

Models aren't useless at all. They are extremely useful, they can be constructed very accurately & you can gather enormous amounts of accurate info about systems.

Amateur models are useless, when large scaling factors are not considered carefully.

The accurate results from professionally constructed models are exactly why engineering companies approved the expenditure of trillions of dollars developing wind tunnel models of airplanes & wave models for ships, etc. over the last 100 years. (And continue to spend that money. Engineering managers require INTENSE justification for spending large amounts of money on what they are convinced are "just engineers' toys". They won't do it unless we can justify the expense.)

The issue is that the models MUST be constructed very, very carefully in order to compensate for the scaling factors.

The theory by which they are built is one of the most powerful in all of engineering. It goes by the name of Dimensional Analysis. The basis of the theory is called the Buckingham Pi Theorem. Both have fair synopses on wikipedia.

Ryan Mackey gave a very good basic review (of a pretty subtle & sophisticated topic) in his video in which he was encouraging people to actually do collapse models. But Ryan showed how to do them right, according to dimensional analysis.

One outgrowth of the theory is that "the greater the scaling factor, the more erroneous your results will be if you don't take this theory into account." And the towers were so huge, that the scaling factor for any practical model is going to be very large (on the order of 1/100th the original size). Some factors will scale as the square of this ratio, meaning that the calculated dimensionless parameters will be off by a factor of 10,000.

Not a trivial error. One might invoke a new unit of measure for this sort of error called the "DickGage".

Ignorance of this topic is exactly the reason that all the pizza box, plastic bin, wooden peg & washer, etc. models that you see on Youtube are irrelevant.

This is also why doing these models as computer models is so valuable, especially when examining very large or very small systems. In computers, you don't have to scale your experiments, and don't run into these problems.

tom

PS. One pretty funny, but illuminating, example of the results of ignoring scaling factors is all those Japanese Godzilla movies. Or any movie where they attempt to replicate the movement of large ships with models in a bathtub. Nothing looks natural, because at the very reduced scale, the behavior of the wind & waves, and their interactions with the models, is all wrong, and these errors are very visible to the eye.
 
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Find me another fire-based collapse of a steel-frame building like WTC7.

The list is long & distinguished.

Like my johnson.

And the list has been posted here several dozen times.
It includes:
Kader Toy factory
Sight & Sound theater
McCormick Plaza

and (wait for it …)

WTC5.

Plus a couple hundred buildings in Dresden & Tokyo. (No, not Godzilla.)

Until you can …

Oops, I just did.

… controlled demolition is just as likely to have occurred as a fire-based collapse.

Until you can show me a silent explosive, CD is out.

Until you can show me thermite cutting 5" thick steel plate in about 0.02 seconds, thermXte is out.

Until you can show me that columns which have been blown or melted into pieces can reassemble themselves perfectly (like T1000 Terminators), then any & all demolitions are out.

Watcha got, son?

Anything?

Or shall I just expect silence?

Thought so.

tk


Ahh, the old "until you can show me a picture of an atom, they don't exist" trick. With a side order of "I don't look at pictures."

How cute...

I had a 7 year old nephew who used to play this game, too. He grew out of it by the time he was 10.

How old did you say you are, SHC?

PPS. Yeah, Noah. You're probably right.
 
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Chris,

The response on that site (incomplete as of now and not released publicly) is this: "If the US technicians can go to the Moon six times, and create the Atom Bomb in secret (not even Vice President Truman knew), we cannot say what can be done in secret. Many tests could have been done in top secret locations."

Not too impressive an answer, in my opinion.

I disagree. It's a very impressive answer. And very enlightening too.

It shows the kid doesn't know what he's talking about. It shows the kid doesn't know how the world of science & engineering really works. Especially the black world.

Truman didn't know about the A-bomb… but Stalin did.

And thousands of others did too. And a significant number of those did not work on the project.

One of the crewmen on the Enola Gay knew (or strongly suspected). Only because his brother was a physicist, and people aren't dummies. He put 2 & 2 together, and asked one of the physicists on the plane, BEFORE they were informed of the mission, if the device on board had "anything to do with splitting atoms".

Germany & Japan had their own atomic programs that they tried to keep secret. They failed too.

Most people will keep secrets if they believe that it is honorable to do so. Some people can't even do that much.

Ask Aldrich Ames or Robert Hanssen. Anything for a buck.

Ask Mattel Toys, who put out a model of the US's greatest military secret - the stealth plane - before it was made public.

If you can't persuade them that it's honorable (like mass murder & treason), then the secret's out in days.

Ask Richard Nixon. Just as soon as the dam started trickling on Watergate, a dozen of his stooges started singing like canaries. They were falling all over themselves to make deals with prosecutors, detail crimes, write screen plays & tell-all biographies.

Anyone remember Margaret Mitchell?
 
Chris,



I disagree. It's a very impressive answer. And very enlightening too.

It shows the kid doesn't know what he's talking about. It shows the kid doesn't know how the world of science & engineering really works. Especially the black world.

Truman didn't know about the A-bomb… but Stalin did.

And thousands of others did too. And a significant number of those did not work on the project.

One of the crewmen on the Enola Gay knew (or strongly suspected). Only because his brother was a physicist, and people aren't dummies. He put 2 & 2 together, and asked one of the physicists on the plane, BEFORE they were informed of the mission, if the device on board had "anything to do with splitting atoms".

Germany & Japan had their own atomic programs that they tried to keep secret. They failed too.

Most people will keep secrets if they believe that it is honorable to do so. Some people can't even do that much.

Ask Aldrich Ames or Robert Hanssen. Anything for a buck.

Ask Mattel Toys, who put out a model of the US's greatest military secret - the stealth plane - before it was made public.

If you can't persuade them that it's honorable (like mass murder & treason), then the secret's out in days.

Ask Richard Nixon. Just as soon as the dam started trickling on Watergate, a dozen of his stooges started singing like canaries. They were falling all over themselves to make deals with prosecutors, detail crimes, write screen plays & tell-all biographies.

Anyone remember Margaret Mitchell?

Even in the Bush White House itself, they couldn't keep the Pat Tillman friendly fire incident covered up. It was revealed by a leaked "personal for" message. And that was just one guy and his family affected, not 3000 people and the economy of the world.
 
The list is long & distinguished.

Like my johnson.

And the list has been posted here several dozen times.
It includes:
Kader Toy factory
Sight & Sound theater
McCormick Plaza

and (wait for it …)

WTC5.

Plus a couple hundred buildings in Dresden & Tokyo. (No, not Godzilla.)



Oops, I just did.



Until you can show me a silent explosive, CD is out.

Until you can show me thermite cutting 5" thick steel plate in about 0.02 seconds, thermXte is out.

Until you can show me that columns which have been blown or melted into pieces can reassemble themselves perfectly (like T1000 Terminators), then any & all demolitions are out.

Watcha got, son?

Anything?

Or shall I just expect silence?

Thought so.

tk


Ahh, the old "until you can show me a picture of an atom, they don't exist" trick. With a side order of "I don't look at pictures."

How cute...

I had a 7 year old nephew who used to play this game, too. He grew out of it by the time he was 10.

How old did you say you are, SHC?

PPS. Yeah, Noah. You're probably right.

Answer rejected.

None of those examples were similar to the WTC7 collapse.

Any others?
 

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