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Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

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Because "the samples were of too poor quality and too dissimilar for a meaningful comparison" doesn't get his name and company mentioned in every major newspaper and newscast in the country.

Except for Central Florida's 24hr news channel. It's weird because news 13 has been pretty on the ball with breaking news regarding this case. I haven't heard them utter a single word about it. And trust me, they are digging for news on this, right now.

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/features/trayvon-martin.html

Orlando is in chaos...
 
I wonder how many people it has occurred to that if these guys admitted how inaccurate their "science" is, they'd all be out of work instead of making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year as expert witnesses.
By your logic polygraph and dowsing are common place in court rooms. To grant you your premise we would have to assume that rules of evidence have no basis in science.

Got any proof?
 
I did see those qualifiers, they just didn't make sense. With audio of this quality - what quality - is it good or bad ?

In the Orlando Sentinel article, it states "Owen says the audio from Zimmerman's call is much better quality than the 911 call in the Davalloo case."

The implication being that normally, a match of at least 60% with a normal-quality recording is required to establish identity with reasonable confidence. However, the Zimmerman recordings are at a high enough quality that if the samples tested are indeed from the same source, they should show much better match (at least 90%), so that a match of only 60% using the higher-quality samples would have indicated that they weren't as likely to be from the same source, and the actual 48% match identified in this case means that they're not at all likely to be from the same source.

So the lower the audio quality the more accurate the test becomes? What is this, audio homeopathy?

No, it seems to be a case of the lower the audio quality, the less confident the results will be. That doesn't mean that recordings can't be analyzed, just that a match becomes that much more obvious with a higher quality recording. [EDIT: In other words, it's easy to say that two muffled sounds resemble each other such that they could have come from the same source. But in order to make the same claim about two clear-as-a-bell sounds, they'd have to sound a lot more alike than two muffled sounds.]

I'd imagine it's an issue of the number of actual matching datapoints in a pool of a given size. For instance, if you have two pools of ten datapoints each, and six match, you can state with some degree of confidence that the two pools are somewhat alike. However, if you have two pools of 100 datapoints each, and ninety match, those two pools are a lot more likely to actually be alike.
 
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Although your remark is in jest, I'll concur -- I don't trust manipulated or "enhanced" video without some evidence of reliability in the "enhancement", so I'm skeptical of this evidence.

Ironically, if the enhanced video had been bad for Zimmerman instead of good, I'm sure SG and company would see it as another sign that I discard all evidence that hurts Zimmerman.

Surely the police had Zimmerman examined for injuries that would corroborate or refute his story and it will eventually be released. I don't see enhanced video being relevant in the final outcome.
 
The sounds of silence.

Yes, his degree in history is very impressive.

Don't you think that ignoring his other credentials is intellectually dishonest? What basis is there to say that a person who has credentials outside of his degree is unqualified?

It's a fallacy to assert that expertise can only come from an institution of higher education.

Thomas J. Owen

  • B.A. History 1969
  • Bellarmine College, Louisville, Kentucky
  • Certificate of Achievement, Electro-Acoustics Synergetic Audio Concepts, 1983
  • Completion of Voice Identification Course, 1985
  • Certification as Voice Identification Examiner, July 17, 1986 by the
  • International Association for Identification,
    Life Member Kentucky Division
    Life Member New Jersey Division
  • Audio Engineering Society NY Chapter Board of Directors 1989-1991 1996-1998
  • Chairman (1991 to Present) Audio Engineering Society WG0-12 Working Group
    "Forensic Audio"
  • The American Board of Forensic Examiners - BCFE, ABFE Fellow, Life Member,
    Board Certified, Homeland Security Advisory Board
  • Chairman Emeritus of the Board of Recorded Evidence - American College of Forensic
    Examiners 1997, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
  • Diplomate in Audio/Video Authenticity and Voice Identification
  • Instructor "Southern Conference Seminar" Western Kentucky University 1992
  • Instructor "New York Institute for Forensic Audio" 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998,
    1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005,2006, 2007
  • Special Deputy, Warren County Sheriff's Department, Bowling Green, KY
  • Experience in the Recording Arts, 35 years
So, is there a valid reason to reject Owen as an expert? Bueller? Anyone?
 
You shouldn't just accept it. You should take it with a giant grain of salt. Just like the 'enhanced audio' of what GZ said on the phone. It's not conclusive.

I think we all knew it was a leak, and we would still have the paramedic records, police photos, etc to document injuries, and this video was not terribly important.

Fair enough. But your original comment certainly made it seem like we could draw definitive conclusions from the enhanced video.
 
Hell if you can get into all those boards with a two day distance class, I am in the wrong business.
I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage. What is a "two day distance class"?
 
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Hell if you can get into all those boards with a two day distance class, I am in the wrong business.

He has worked in the industry for 35 years, which would put the start of his career around 1977. He didn't become a member of any board until 1989.

So yes, a "two day distance class" and 12 years working experience.
 
* Professor Yaffle;8165771 waits for double-blind testing of the specific video enhancement technique used. :p
That's a legitimate point. Unfortunately what the ABC reporter says is meaningless, "we enhanced it and re-digitized it". If they would release both copies it would help to compare to the two and analyze what they did. Most likely them applies some filters, adjusted sharpness etc.

Also, the side by side image where ABC shows how they "enhanced it" is hilarious and outrageous, it's not the same frame! (approx 55 seconds in).
 
I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage. What is a "two day distance class"?

I am saying he seems more than qualified. I was making a joke because some pages ago it was mentioned how easy it was for him to get the credentials he has.
 
By your logic polygraph and dowsing are common place in court rooms. To grant you your premise we would have to assume that rules of evidence have no basis in science.
What?? How does me pointing out what a huge vested interest these guys have in claiming they are accurate lead to that "logic" in any way?

I posted a paper earlier from a scientist who I expect could run rings around Owen explaining that voice print technology should be viewed with skepticism and is not accurate. You know, a real scientist, not a guy with a degree in history who then took some courses and made himself into an expert witness. You and almost everyone who believes Owen, not surprisingly, totally ignored it.
 
Ah, yes. Despite being rejected by courts in the past, modern techniques produce accurate results, according to the experts who make their living from the use of those techniques. The evidence confirms their validity, as me and my friends in the field, both producing and judging the evidence, will all agree.

Where have we heard this before?
Right because science never makes any progress. :rolleyes:


BTW, the news is now reporting that Owen concludes his analysis to be 99% sensitive meaning a negative result ruling out Zimmerman will be correct 99% of the time.
 
What?? How does me pointing out what a huge vested interest these guys have in claiming they are accurate lead to that "logic" in any way?
Because those in the polygraph and dowsing fields have the very same vested interest. You can't just introduced anything you want into court and you are ignoring that fact with your ad hominem fallacy.

I posted a paper earlier from a scientist who I expect could run rings around Owen explaining that voice print technology should be viewed with skepticism and is not accurate. You know, a real scientist, not a guy with a degree in history who then took some courses and made himself into an expert witness. You and almost everyone who believes Owen, not surprisingly, totally ignored it.
Intellectually dishonest. You refuse to answer my questions and then assert the same ad hominem fallacy. Owen can't just say anything he likes in court. If he could then we would expect to find polygraph and dowsing testimony in court.

You are wrong. That there is someone who disagrees with Owen isn't proof that Owen isn't an expert or that the technology is unreliable.
 
Let me make clear...

... it could all be nonsense and Owen could have pulled the wool over everyone's eyes. I doubt it. But it would be intellectually dishonest of me to assert that it's not possible. It has happened before.

If that is a fact then this case may help to expose an injustice. But let's not throw the rules of evidence under the bus so easily.
 
I posted a paper earlier from a scientist who I expect could run rings around Owen explaining that voice print technology should be viewed with skepticism and is not accurate. You know, a real scientist, not a guy with a degree in history who then took some courses and made himself into an expert witness. You and almost everyone who believes Owen, not surprisingly, totally ignored it.
Correction, a paper written by 6 scientists, not one.
 
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