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Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

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I admit it's merely a suspicion; it's just a bit odd that he (and in fairness not just he) comes up with a special reason why every single thing that casts doubt upon Zimmerman's story doesn't or shouldn't count; but things that don't cast any such doubt, don't get the same scrutiny. A witness who sees Zimmerman being pummeled is reliable; one who doesn't see that is questionable. One can tell by ear that the crying voice is Zimmerman based on what we know his voice sounds like from the 911 call; but when one tries to use technology to accomplish the same end it's "woo". Trayvon's girlfriend has been proven to have been on the phone exactly when she claimed to be; but the remainder of her testimony is "not credible" anyway. Zimmerman thinking Martin "suspicious" because he was black like the suspect in some burglary months prior and choosing to follow him by vehicle and on foot while describing him using expletives on the phone with police was reasonable; Martin reacting negatively in any way to being followed by some stranger in the middle of the night who continued to pursue even after Martin ran is irrational and makes him the aggressor. And so on, and so forth.
I apologize for my previous post direct at you, *assuming* your characterization above is accurate (I will let WC say if it is). Speaking for myself I can say the above don't apply to me, and I can say that I can see possible scenarios in which Zimmerman is 100% to blame, and other scenarios in which Martin initiated violence.

EVEN if Martin initiated violence, it's also possible he actually thought he was defending himself. OR it could have been aggressive violence. No way to know at this point at least based on the media info.
 
SG has done a great job of showing how easy it is to generate "expert credentials". I'm sure the polygraph experts and chelation analysts will appreciate how easy it is to defeat her level of skepticism.
 
If you were a juror and know what you know at this point from this discussion, would you convict or aquit?

I would convict, certainly.

The state's case:

1. Zimmerman noticed Martin
2. Zimmerman followed Martin
3. Martin ran
4. Zimmerman pursued Martin on foot
5. Zimmerman eventually made contact with Martin
6. Zimmerman and Martin fought
7. Zimmerman shot and killed Martin

There is substantial evidence for all of the above.

Zimmerman's case: Something happened between steps 4 and 5 that made step 7 legal. There is so far exactly zero evidence of the existence of that extra step - none. No physical evidence, no witness statements; it doesn't even fit the narrative.

The mere existence of an alternative theory of the crime is not enough to create reasonable doubt. There has to be a reason to believe the alternative theory has some veracity. At this point I don't see any reason to think Zimmerman's extra step is true.
 
Gee wizz, I should contact the world's police departments. They're wasting billions employing detectives and forensic experts! The fools think sifting and collecting evidence, then applying it to find the probable guilty party is finding facts, little did they know they should be using a narrow court definition as spelled out in the dictionary.
To say they are not "finders of facts" doesn't mean they don't find facts. It's a legal definition. It means they cannot be the final arbiter of what is true. They cannot act as judge and jury because there is potential for conflict of interest. When the police and prosecutor assured everyone that there was sufficient evidence to charge the Duke Lacrosse players, they were lying. Just because the police assert something doesn't make it true.
 
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SG has done a great job of showing how easy it is to generate "expert credentials". I'm sure the polygraph experts and chelation analysts will appreciate how easy it is to defeat her level of skepticism.
Have any of these experts demonstrated an ability to accurately identify a voice with data similar to what we have in the Martin case?

Or should we just take their word for it?
 
When did I say this? I never said her testimony was not credible, except when she said things she couldn't possibly know from hearing it on the phone, such as who pushed who first. If she could do that Randi has $1 million waiting for her.
Strong in detecting the woo you are too :D. Yep, the very moment I kept reading that in the media I was like "are you kidding me". It's clearly a conclusion she came to after finding out what happened.
 
Have any of these experts demonstrated an ability to accurately identify a voice with data similar to what we have in the Martin case?

Or should we just take their word for it?

So I guess you just skipped the videos entirely?

ETA: I'm also not a climatologist or a demolitions expert, but I can defer to expert testimony even if I don't understand it all. In the case of AGW, the same arguments crop up incessantly. "Oh, you can't trust those scientists. They are in on the conspiracy!" "Popular Mechanics is just trying to sell copies of their magazine! They're lying about thermite!"

What hasn't been demonstrated is why Owen would think coming to one conclusion over the other would help his company unless he thought he was being accurate?
 
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So I guess you just skipped the videos entirely?
Look at teh yootoobz! Look at teh yootoobz!

Got any peer-reviewed published papers establishing the accuracy of this with data similar to what we have in this case?
 
Straw man. I do not argue that the police are in the habit of lying. I'm arguing that they can and do lie from time to time. So the system was set up to avoid conflicts of interest. To say they are not "finders of facts" doesn't mean they don't find facts. Please to take a moment and educate yourself. They cannot act as judge and jury because there is potential for conflict of interest. When the police and prosecutor assured everyone that there was sufficient evidence to charge the Duke Lacrosse players, they were lying. Just because the police assert something doesn't make it true.
In this instance I'm particularly concerned because of the political pressure being exerted and the fact that the authorities may fear riots and violence if they don't prosecute. The funny thing is I was as outraged as everyone based on the initial reports, but then kept reading and then when millions of people starting signing petitions demanding his arrest I said to myself "wait a minute here, this is insane, I want more investigation, but how the hell can we be demanding his arrest?"
 
Look at teh yootoobz! Look at teh yootoobz!

Got any peer-reviewed published papers establishing the accuracy of this with data similar to what we have in this case?

You're the one claiming fraud. Skeptic Ginger posted a pretty strong CV that Owen is a respected expert. You claim he's a fraud, just because.

Then you ask a question specifically about the conditions the software can handle. Can it handle background noise? Can it handle altered voices? Can it handle low res recordings? All of those questions are answered in the videos. I think you likely didn't even watch them because contrary to your claims, you have staked out a position and you aren't going to budge for anything.

How about this? If...IF...the screams are not Zimmerman's. Meaning Zimmerman lied, the screams are of a terrified youth who was then shot, is that game over for Zimmerman? Will that be enough for you to form a conclusion?

Because I think it's pretty clear that's where we're headed but I want you on record now to avoid goal post shifting.
 
In this instance I'm particularly concerned because of the political pressure being exerted and the fact that the authorities may fear riots and violence if they don't prosecute. The funny thing is I was as outraged as everyone based on the initial reports, but then kept reading and then when millions of people starting signing petitions demanding his arrest I said to myself "wait a minute here, this is insane, I want more investigation, but how the hell can we be demanding his arrest?"

If not for "political pressure" the case would be closed right now, with no investigation at all. I thought that was not in dispute at this point?
 
So I guess you just skipped the videos entirely?

ETA: I'm also not a climatologist or a demolitions expert, but I can defer to expert testimony even if I don't understand it all. In the case of AGW, the same arguments crop up incessantly. "Oh, you can't trust those scientists. They are in on the conspiracy!"

You're completely ignoring a huge detail. It is well established that climate scientists are in fact true scientists practicing a real science, so yes I defer to them.

On the other hand I don't defer to homeopathic experts, because they aren't real experts. For similar reasons I won't defer to voice experts until someone can prove to me its a real science.

I posted a question a page back asking if anyone is aware of double blind tests showing that voice "experts" can successfully identify someone with reliability using recordings of the type being used here. If this "science" is in fact a science, that should be an absolute requirement for proving its validity.

Do you agree?
 
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If not for "political pressure" the case would be closed right now, with no investigation at all. I thought that was not in dispute at this point?
Where did I dispute that? Here's what I said:

"when millions of people starting signing petitions demanding his arrest I said to myself "wait a minute here, this is insane, I want more investigation, but how the hell can we be demanding his arrest?"
 
Where does the burden of proof lie Checkmite?

With the claimant. Except apparently when the claimant is Zimmerman. Then it's, "the legal concept of presumed innocence prevents us here in this critical thinking forum from critically examining his claim of self-defense".

Well yes, an eyewitness is more reliable than a non-eyewitness. The eyewitness heard and saw the scuffle, as opposed to just hearing it.

I'm talking about eye-witnesses who did not see Martin on top of Zimmerman. The boy, for instance, who claimed to see Zimmerman on the ground screaming but (curiously) no Martin on top of him beating him.

No, the eyewitness actually saw the person screaming, and since we have 2 ears it's quite easy to tell where sound is coming from, which is the very reason evolution provided us with 2 ears. And the eyewitness can actually see lips move as well as the sound and doesn't have to make assumptions like Cutcher did.

Ah yes, the eyewitness who gave that rather elaborate story to the press some time after the event; much like Trayvon's girlfriend.

When did I say this?

Of course you never said it; someone else did. So it's wrong to ascribe that position to you. Unlike, say, referring to all people here who aren't defending Zimmerman as woos, "witch hunters", race-baiters, and/or a fanatical "lynch mob" who are not interested in a fair trial despite being the only ones interested in any kind of trial for the first several pages of this thread.

Neither party to this had the right to lay hands on the other, no matter what their suspicions were. Once that happens the other party is engaging in self-defense.

No argument here.
 
I think rigorous scientific testing sure would help to establish the credibility of the software.
 
Then you ask a question specifically about the conditions the software can handle. Can it handle background noise? Can it handle altered voices? Can it handle low res recordings? All of those questions are answered in the videos. I think you likely didn't even watch them because contrary to your claims, you have staked out a position and you aren't going to budge for anything.
I watched the 3rd video. None of the comparisons were of a scream vs. speech.

Not a single one.

In fact, it was the same phrase repeated over and over they compared.

And the one with music had the music so low in the mix it was barely audible.

If this guy is the best expert in the field I question the entire field.

Show me where this guy can identify a voice under similar conditons as the Martin tapes. I suspect no examples will be forthcoming.
 
You're completely ignoring a huge detail. It is well established that climate scientists are in fact true scientists practicing a real science, so yes I defer to them.

On the other hand I don't defer to homeopathic experts, because they aren't real experts.

I posted a question a page back asking if anyone is aware of double blind tests showing that voice "experts" can successfully identify someone with reliability using recordings of the type being used here. If this "science" is in fact a science, that should be an absolute requirement for proving its validity.

Do you agree?

Skeptic Ginger pointed to a large body of links to the relevant forensics groups. Owen has published several papers so I'm going to assume that he's qualified. On top of this, we know, as I mentioned earlier, that the CIA routinely ID'd Osama Bin Laden tapes as being authentic. Not all of these tapes were studio quality. Go listen to some of them. They're grainy and hard to hear. What they used to do is hand match the sound waves based on certain rules. The only thing this software does is automate that process. It's pretty impressive stuff.

Finally, I also mentioned the amazing Sound Hound. That software works on backgroung music in crowded bars, or terrible humming. We can all try that for ourselves to see just how capable modern computers are at matching sound patterns. This isn't a new field. Just because this guy built a program to automate what others have been doing by hand doesn't make it woo without some serious evidence to back this up. Apparently this guy is a leader in the field.

So give me one reason we should hand wave this away?
 
You're the one claiming fraud. Skeptic Ginger posted a pretty strong CV that Owen is a respected expert.

Are you seriously arguing that his CV proves something? Seriously?! Do you have any idea how easy it is to be a "respected expert"? I ask again, can you or anyone point us to peer reviewed double blind tests showing the accuracy of voice identification with substandard recordings such as these?

IF you can I'm entirely open to changing my opinion, but I actually have this pesky little obsession with proof.
 
I would convict, certainly.

The state's case:

1. Zimmerman noticed Martin
2. Zimmerman followed Martin
3. Martin ran
4. Zimmerman pursued Martin on foot
5. Zimmerman eventually made contact with Martin
6. Zimmerman and Martin fought
7. Zimmerman shot and killed Martin

There is substantial evidence for all of the above.

Zimmerman's case: Something happened between steps 4 and 5 that made step 7 legal. There is so far exactly zero evidence of the existence of that extra step - none. No physical evidence, no witness statements; it doesn't even fit the narrative.

The mere existence of an alternative theory of the crime is not enough to create reasonable doubt. There has to be a reason to believe the alternative theory has some veracity. At this point I don't see any reason to think Zimmerman's extra step is true.
Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

The law doesn't require the defendant to prove any alternative theory beyond a doubt, and certainly doesn't require them to prove a negative (that they didn't commit murder).

If a defendant's account matches the elements of self defense to the available facts, the jury will be instructed to hold it in the light of innocent until proven guilty, and to test the prosecution's alternate theories against 'proven beyond any reasonable doubt'.

There are things that can be brought into evidence to attack the defendant's credibility, but a lot of what is being bandied about here as proof of guilt cannot be introduced as such in court.

Zimmerman's history can be used to suggest and to cast doubt, but it can't be given to the jury as an instruction that they must find Zimmerman guilty because of past behavior or personal characteristics.

Zimmerman's actions that night can be used to suggest some level of impulsive or reckless behavior, but that would be more applicable to a lesser charge, and the threshold is pretty high.

Some of the other things brought up here, such as Zimmerman being Hispanic, or 'looking like a gang memeber', or having a CCW permit and having a weapon in his possession, are not worth much at all other than to inflame the jury... which a decent defense attorney (and judge) should shut down early and often.

Inconsistencies in what the *media* reported between police reports, and video footages, and witness statements again, cannot be instructed to the jury as evidence of guilt.

Things like voice analysis could be fairly important at contradicting Zimmerman's narrative... if the judge finds that they are widely accepted by the scientific community, and admits them in the first place.

Absent that or some other unimpeachable evidence, Zimmerman has every right to assert self defense purely on the critical element of 'I was in fear for my life'.

The prosecution is going to have to prove to the jury that no matter what happened earlier, he was not thinking those thoughts when he pulled the trigger.

Obstacles exist for both sides.
 
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