So Will 2012 Be Just Another Year?

[Mudcat]

It can ease our transition through ayahuasca ceremonies. When taken under the supervision of shamans, ayahuasca can cure:

Depression
Anxiety
Panic attacks
Sleep disorders
ADHD
Drug abuse
Alcohol abuse
OCD, Obsessive Compulsive disorder
Schizophrenia
Violent behavior
Anti-social disorder
Neurodegenerative disorders such as Parkinson’s
Cancer

and it can give us:

Improved general physical health
Increased mental clarity
Improved relationships
Improved outlook on life
Increased sense of purpose
More spiritual in life
Happier sense of well being
More self confidence
Calmer
More compassion/empathy
Increased energy
Improved concentration
Improved anger control
Feeling more centered
More humble
Quicker healing time
Better creativity

I trust that you have evidence for the above claims?

We must shamanize as much of the human race as possible.

We'd be better off leaving behind that superstious mumbo jumbo.

 

[carlitos]

On his website, Paul Gilding (who is not a scientist) seems to think that we'll be OK.

The optimism is infectious and so the opening session sparked quite a controversy. I gave my worldview with a talk titled “The Earth is Full”, arguing a major economic crisis was now being triggered by humanity passing the limits of the earth’s capacity to provide cheap resources, especially soil, climate and water. While I argued humanity was good in a crisis and we’d get through it, my argument left the techno-optimists a little shell-shocked, as they are more used to being uplifted with stories of optimism and endless opportunity.

 

[Limbo]

I trust that you have evidence for the above claims?

Yeah but a pseudo-skeptic like you wouldn't be interested.

We'd be better off leaving behind that superstious mumbo jumbo.

No we'll be better off leaving anti-spiritual paradigms behind, now that your misguided, heartless, self-centered "science" has all but screwed us.

 

[UndercoverElephant]

On his website, Paul Gilding (who is not a scientist) seems to think that we'll be OK.

He's trying to motivate people. He is saying that we could be OK, but only if we change course in a major way, RIGHT NOW. He's most certainly not saying we are going to be OK if we try to keep going in the same direction we are currently headed.

 

[Mudcat]

Yeah but a pseudo-skeptic like you wouldn't be interested.

Hit me with your best shot. You might just be surprised.


Edit to add: How can you be a psudo-skeptic? You either are or you are not. I am skeptical of your claims about Mysticsm so I require you furnish me with evidence that I can examine for myself to come to a conclusion.

No we'll be better off leaving anti-spiritual paradigms behind, now that your misguided, heartless, self-centered "science" has all but screwed us.

Mysticism has gotten us nowhere. Science has gotten us somewhere, it's a lot beter off than it used to be.

 

[dafydd]

There´s gonna be someone very disappointed when the time comes.

You mean doesn't come.

 

[PixyMisa]

He's trying to motivate people. He is saying that we could be OK, but only if we change course in a major way, RIGHT NOW. He's most certainly not saying we are going to be OK if we try to keep going in the same direction we are currently headed.

Here's the thing, UCE. We're not going to keep on in the same direction we're currently headed. We never do. It's not even possible.

Now, true, as with the regular economic boom/bust cycle, the adjustment can be hard, or it can be easy, depending on whether we read the cards right. But those who think behaviour won't change are even more foolish than those who merely think it doesn't need to. The latter are failing to foresee the future; the former are failing to see the past.

 

[Orphia Nay]

He's trying to motivate people. He is saying that we could be OK, but only if we change course in a major way, RIGHT NOW. He's most certainly not saying we are going to be OK if we try to keep going in the same direction we are currently headed.

So people have to change themselves? Glad you agree that 2012 is not going to change people in any way on its own.

 

[UndercoverElephant]

So people have to change themselves? Glad you agree that 2012 is not going to change people in any way on its own.

It's not quite that simple. If the world is changing all around you then it is very different to just stay the same. But I certainly don't think people are going to be "miraculously changed" by God tweaking with their brains...

 

[UndercoverElephant]

Here's the thing, UCE. We're not going to keep on in the same direction we're currently headed. We never do. It's not even possible.

It's not possible for the human population of this planet to keep rising forever, but that doesn't mean it's not possible for humans to keep trying to make it rise forever.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I think 2012 will be an unusual year.

Mainly because of what the (small but still there) groups of 2012 doom-mongers will start doing. People Morons in the UK are panic buying petrol and diesel already because they heard the word "strike" uttered by tanker drivers. Despite the fact they explicitly ruled out strike action before Easter and have stated multiple times now they may not strike at all, all people hear is "strike" and start to go mental.

People are idiots who hear what they want to hear and act accordingly. I suspect we may see a lot of trouble in 2012, not because anything will happen but because morons expect it to, so will start acting accordingly.

 

[Orphia Nay]

It's not quite that simple. If the world is changing all around you then it is very different to just stay the same. But I certainly don't think people are going to be "miraculously changed" by God tweaking with their brains...

Then what is your point? Do you think 2012 is going to change events but not people? You don't believe in a spiritual change?

 

[PixyMisa]

It's not possible for the human population of this planet to keep rising forever, but that doesn't mean it's not possible for humans to keep trying to make it rise forever.

Once again you make my point for me. Birth rates are declining everywhere. World population growth (as a percentage) peaked in the 60's and has been declining ever since. It's expected to go negative in the middle of this century.

You can't just take a bunch of datapoints, draw a straight line through them, and call it a trend.

 

[realpaladin]

You know what irks me... doomsday is never before tax-declaration day.

 

[devnull]

This thread reminds me: whatever happened to paul whatshisname with the dead grass and the blinding and such.......geee I miss that guy.....

 

[realpaladin]

I think 2012 will be an unusual year.

Mainly because of what the (small but still there) groups of 2012 doom-mongers will start doing. People Morons in the UK are panic buying petrol and diesel already because they heard the word "strike" uttered by tanker drivers. Despite the fact they explicitly ruled out strike action before Easter and have stated multiple times now they may not strike at all, all people hear is "strike" and start to go mental.

People are idiots who hear what they want to hear and act accordingly. I suspect we may see a lot of trouble in 2012, not because anything will happen but because morons expect it to, so will start acting accordingly.

Like "thank you for the Kool-Aid, reverend Jim"?

 

[Nosi]

UE, there are some people living in caves but not in the way you'd think.

A tiny home can act as a second home for when the kids come back home if reality bites. Sometimes it isn't their fault. The cheaper option to the tumbleweed is a used trailer, something you can find for $500 if you look deep enough.

 

[Nosi]

Do you feel that climate change is entirely due to our influence, or might a solar cycle also be contributing?

I think that climate change is like a gigantic uncovered sewer. Earth the planet and the sun created most of it due to it being a cycle. Our actions are as a flock of birds taking a crap in the sewer..

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Sure.

I believe that the massive expansion in the human population since the start of the industrial revolution is almost entirely due to the technological advances that have allowed us to make such good use of fossil fuels. It is true that there are all sorts of secondary reasons why the population is soaring out of control (e.g. improvements in medical knowledge) but when you think how many of these secondary factors would never happened without fossil-fuel-based industrialisation I think it is clear that the Industrial Revolution was primarily driven by fossil fuels. That's pretty much what "Industrial" means - doing stuff with machines powered by something other than humans/animals. Most importantly, agricultural industrialisation has allowed us to increase crop yields by several multiples since the start of the IR.

We are now facing multiple crises caused by our industrialised way of life, and the scale upon which humanity now influences the global ecosystem. Climate change is probably the scariest of these, but the really bad stuff is still a few decades away in that case. But Peak Oil is the most important threat from the point of view of the existing economic system and industrial base. That's because oil is (by far) the most important and useful non-renewable natural resource. And I am increasingly confident that the peak in global oil production has already happened in the period of 2005-2008. We are right now entering the start of the downslope. We are at the point where global supply can just about keep up with demand, and that's after taking into account the "demand destruction" that has already happened because of persistently high oil prices.

Also, our monetary system is broken. This is partly because of poor regulation of the banks and unethical/illegal behaviour by the banksters, but there's even more serious problems than that. Firstly the system requires infinite growth but the world is finite. Secondly we are using a global "fiat" currency system and history shows us that all fiat currencies eventually collapse, usually after about 40 years. Ours is 41 years old (since Nixon cut the last link between the dollar and gold.)

So we have a fundamental resource/population problem, a broken monetary system, an economic system which is not fit for purpose, a political system which is incapable of delivering long-term results because all democratically-elected politicians can't see past the next election, and a general public in the western world, especially the US, which don't really have the first clue what is actually going on (although many of them must surely be beginning to wonder how bad this is going to get...?)

Put the whole picture together and what we've got is not lots of separate crises but a fundamentally broken global economic/political system and an underlying physical resource problem which would still be terrifying even if we could sort the economic/political system out (and we can't.)

There's only one way this story can end now, and it is with some sort of systemic breakdown. Literally The End Of The World As We Know It and the beginning of new and more difficult era that we might call "scarcity industrialism" or "de-industrialisation."

Underlying the whole sorry story is a basic fact about ecology. The rest of the Earth's ecosystem has not been able to respond quickly enough to the appearance of a creature with an entirely new survival strategy: pure brainpower. We have been so busy overcoming every obstacle nature could throw at us that we've taken over the entire ecosystem and now the obstacle we are faced with is ourselves.

It all boils downs to this: there's too many humans on this planet, and our political/social/cultural/psychological mechanisms are hopelessly ill-equipped to deal with this particular problem, because all of these things are naturally "pro-human*."

* Pro-humans-alive-today. Never mind the poor buggers who are going to have to deal with the long-term consequences (i.e. our children.)

Sincerely,

UndercoverElephant

Tuesday, April 3rd, 1897

 

[Lara67]

Hi all! I'm a newbie, so I'm hoping y'all will be gentle with me. LOL

The reason I say that is, my beliefs are more than likely a bit different than the vast majority of JREF members. I am a conservative Christian, and I joined knowing Mr. Randi is an atheist. That really doesn't bother me, because although our religious views are on the opposite ends of the spectrum, I still find him to be a highly intelligent man and thoroughly enjoy listening to him speak and watching him put hucksters in their place. That is why I chose to join here.

As to the thread topic, as a Christian I believe what the Bible has to say concerning the last days, the Rapture, the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming. Based on my faith in Jesus Christ (which is something that cannot be scientifically measured, it just is what it is), I know these things will come to pass at some point. Will it be this year? I don't know. The Bible says only God knows precisely when the world will end. Even his son Jesus doesn't know, nor the angels ... OR the Mayans. So, it's not up to me to say yes or no.

I will say that I do believe we ARE in the last days. Yes, I know people have been saying that for what seems like forever, but things are happening now that 20 years ago didn't seem possible ... i.e. a one-world financial system/cashless society. I'm 44 now, and the lightning-fast speed of technology in the past two decades astounds me. I graduated college in 1988, and back then we used IBM typewriters and MS-DOS on computers! The first Windows software program was not available until 1990. Data storage used to require entire rooms filled with gigantic machines. Now multiple amounts fit into smartphones no bigger than a credit card. It's mind boggling -- something I never could have envisioned or believed back then.

Compare the level of knowledge (the RFID chip, for example) with the current global economic crisis, and suddenly ... BAM! It's all starting to become clearer and make more sense. Many things prophesied in the Bible that seemed impossible a generation ago now appear to be happening before our very eyes.

I hope I don't get rotten tomatoes thrown at me.