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Merged Roosevelt's Rotten Record:Communism, Treachery, Betrayal

They knew the blast itself would generate a large amount of radiation, but they didn't understand the effects or duration of fallout. They didn't know because there had never been any nuclear detonations before mid-1945.




No. Again, they couldn't have known about the effects of radioactive fallout because there had never been an atomic blast previously.


Even with radiation and fallout, nukes are preferable. Why? Because a great many people who are killed by them are essentially instantly vaporized. Death sucks, but at least it is over with before the person even can register that something is amiss.
 
While I understand the sentiment, on a practical level, when one is talking about only half the bombs landing within one-third of a mile of the aiming point when dropped under good conditions, it's pretty clear strategic bombing was always largely indiscriminate. Such was the technology of the time.

That is not to say, however, that the application of strategic airpower over Europe and Japan was always utilized in the best manner possible. It wasn't. Plenty of mistakes were made. If the air forces could have gone into the campaign with the knowledge it only got after the conflict, the air war could have been prosecuted far more efficiently, with fewer casualties, and to much greater economic effect. But hindsight, as they say, is always 20-20.

Strategic bombing was very much a blunt tool. But it was the only tool which existed for striking directly at the heart of enemy's war production.

I understand that, and agree, however the carpet bombing with incendiaries of civilian areas was more what I had in mind.

Certainly some of the strategic targets were effectively dealt with.
 
I understand that, and agree, however the carpet bombing with incendiaries of civilian areas was more what I had in mind.


That's what I figured, actually. It is an example of the tool being its most blunt. But even then it had notable—albeit indirect—effects on the war economy.
 
We still seem to be overlook the fact that it was a different president when the Bombs were dropped.
 
That's what I figured, actually. It is an example of the tool being its most blunt. But even then it had notable—albeit indirect—effects on the war economy.

Yes and no, I think it is wrong, and that is just my opinion.

It kills a bunch of civilians and makes them homeless, but as far as the war effort , I don't know.

I like the part in Speer's bio (I think thats where it is ) where an Allied commander tell him that it would have been more effective if they had just killed Speer. (In regards to teh ball bearing campaign)
 
Yes and no, I think it is wrong, and that is just my opinion.
True, the bomb is a bad thing. But that's today's evaluation. They didn't know much about the bomb except that it was A BIG BOMB when they were deciding whether to use it or not. In all my reading on this subject (and I've been paid to give talks about it) I've never read anything where they discussed or even mentioned lingering effects of radiation or the irradiation of people in the target area where it was to be used. Of course some scientists, like Oppenheimer, knew that pure uranium has hazardous, but the experiments done were in the lab, using small amounts and (happily) without a fission reaction of any scale being involved.
It kills a bunch of civilians and makes them homeless, but as far as the war effort , I don't know.
Quite simply, the Emperor stepped up after the second bomb and said, "Enough!" The Soviet declaration of war must be factored into this, those two events being the tip-over point.
 
OK, I've had to move 100+ posts off to AAH because you guys can't play nice. Keep it civil and on topic. The other posters are not the topic. Expect some infractions to be levied against the posts I moved, as soon as a mod can stomach reading them all.

Yes, I used my axe to make the cuts, so even if one line was unacceptable, I ditched the entire post. Don't like it? Stay within the bounds of the MA next time.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis
 
Yes and no, I think it is wrong, and that is just my opinion.


I can respect the fact that people can reasonably disagree on the matter.


It kills a bunch of civilians and makes them homeless, but as far as the war effort , I don't know.


It did, but as stated, the effects were more indirect.

When Hamburg was largely burned to the ground in July of 1943 it had a tremendous psychological impact. Albert Speer stated that another half-dozen German cities wrecked in the same way in short order would "bring Germany's armaments production to a total halt." Erhard Milch stated that "If we get just five or six more attacks like those on Hamburg, the German people will just lay down their tools, however great their willpower..." But the RAF couldn't replicate what it had done at Hamburg, so Germany recovered. As it was some four months' of war production was lost in the city. That's not inconsequential. (Whether that was worth the cost in lives is another calculation entirely.)

More generally, the European bombing campaign produced the following effects. Quoting from The Crucible of War 1939-1945 by Brereton Greenhous, Stephen J. Harris, William C. Johnson, and William G.P. Rawling:

...was the extent to which the bomber offensive against Germany constituted a 'Second Front' long before the Allied invasion of Northwest Europe, and even when only Bomber Command was heavily involved in it. In terms of manpower alone, the Germans used between 500,000 to 800,000 workers to repair bomb damage and organize the dispersal of vital industries, labourers who could otherwise have been involved in the direct production of war materiel, while the Flak arm required some 900,000 men in 1943 and was still 656,000 strong in April 1945 - many of whom might otherwise have played a significant part in the ground war.

The enemy was also forced to allocate considerable equipment to air defence. In March 1942, as the German army was fighting critical battles in Russia and Bomber Command had not yet launched its first 'thousand' raid or its initial battle of the Ruhr, there were already 3970 heavy Flak guns deployed around German cities which could have been made into mobile artillery or bolstered anti-tank defences in the east. By September 1944 that number had grown to 10,225. Indeed, according to Albert Speer, of the 19,713 88-millimetre and 128-millimetre dual-purpose Flak/anti-tank artillery pieces produced between 1942 and 1944, only 3172 could be allocated to the army for use in the anti-armour role because of the pressure of air attack. Similarly, the threat posed by Bomber Command's night raids meant that the German night-fighter force accounted for a consistently increasing percentage of Luftwaffe front-line strength - more than 20 per cent of the total in December 1944. Several hundred of those on strength in late 1943 and 1944 were machines which could have been used to great advantage in other roles on other fronts.


There are some noteworthy indirect effects in the above. Were those effects worth the cost in human lives? That's the harder question to answer. I personally would answer yes, because war is hell and whatever one can do to shorten the hell likely means fewer deaths overall.


I like the part in Speer's bio (I think thats where it is ) where an Allied commander tell him that it would have been more effective if they had just killed Speer. (In regards to teh ball bearing campaign)


The idea was sound—ball bearing production was one of the key choke points in war production. The problem was that at the time the USAAF attempted to knock it out it did so with an insufficiently strong bomber force (it wasn't really grasped just how many bombers were needed to truly knock out a target) and without long-range fighter escort. So that the results were ultimately disappointing should not be surprising.

The Allies were also misled in their bomb damage assessments. They get the post-strike photos of a target, see all kinds of wrecked buildings, would conclude the target had been destroyed, cross it off the list, and move to the next target. Only it was often the case that the damage on the ground was not nearly as severe as it looked from the air. So a wrecked facility wasn't really wrecked and production would be resumed in relatively short order.

The Allies also left some potentially decisive targets off the list. There was no campaign against the German electrical supply, for example, even though a sustained effort against it could have produced results as decisive as those obtained in the attacks against oil and transportation.
 
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No. Again, they couldn't have known about the effects of radioactive fallout because there had never been an atomic blast previously.

Yes. Again, because they understood that large amounts of radioactivity were released in an atomic explosion and that radioactivity was extremely dangerous to humans. They knew this from the Trinity test. Our government simply didn't care about the troops or civilians subjected to that radioactivity.

It's important to remember, this is the same criminal government that was, at the time, conducting the Tuskegee syphilis experiments against its own citizens and would just a few short years later carry out MK-ULTRA and Project 112/SHAD tests against its citizens and military personnel. Testing the effects of radioactivity, drugs, diseases, chemicals, poisons, and biological weapons on citizens was standard operating procedure for our government, so you're not going to convince anyone here that our government "didn't know".

It's total B.S.
 
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Show me the documentation on the effects of fallout prior to August, 9th, 1945, please. I gotta see this ****.

Are you actually arguing that our government was completely unaware of the risks of radiation exposure to humans? That our government didn't know that radiation was dangerous?

Do you have any proof of this?
 
An aside, but how soon after the Trinity test did the scientists go into view the site and what measures to protect themselves did they make?

SHC you need to provide evidence for your claim.....but we all know you won't!
 
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Burden of proof lies on you hotshot. But you don't understand what that means as you are just a waste of time troll. I still don't know why you haven't been banned. You add nothing to this forum but noise.
 
Burden of proof lies on you hotshot. But you don't understand what that means as you are just a waste of time troll. I still don't know why you haven't been banned. You add nothing to this forum but noise.

No, burden of proof lies with you. You don't get to be right by default.

Sorry, but that's just the way it's going to be from now on.
 

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