Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[bookitty]

That's not illegal. Profiling/flat out racism and following someone isn't a crime, under any law. It doesn't matter what inspired him to follow Trayvon. If (notice the if) Zimmerman's story is true, Zimmerman stopped following him and was heading back to his car, when Trayvon approached him, asked him if he had a problem, then attacked him. Again, if that story is true, then Trayvon was in the wrong, not for being black and wearing a hoodie, for confronting his follower with violence. The problem, that has been so since the beginning, is there is nothing to counter the aspects of Zimmerman's story that matter the most.

Sort of. There's still the complicated mess of hate crimes.

 

[LTC8K6]

It's impossible to keep up.

It's not impossible to know what was going through Martin's mind. He was terrified and calling for help.

A witness says it was Zimmerman calling for help. Zimmerman also says he was calling for help.

 

[crimresearch]

It's impossible to keep up.

It's not impossible to know what was going through Martin's mind. He was terrified and calling for help.

It is certainly possible to assume.
But it is impossible to know what was going through a dead person's mind.
It is also impossible for us to know whose voice that was, between 2 people we've never met in your life.

If you can prove otherwise, I'd say 'Don't spend the million all in one place'.

 

[Mumbles]

A witness says it was Zimmerman calling for help. Zimmerman also says he was calling for help.

Well, witnesses don't agree on who was crying for help, and Zimmerman's story, or rather the stories that his defenders have been pushing, is just idiotic.

 

[LTC8K6]

A few questions:

1> Why was TM in a gated community?
2> Is there a guarded entrance?
3> If he drove a car there, where was it parked?
4> Did Zimmerman say that he saw TM going between houses?
5> What was the time of day?
6> Did TM have any business, friends, or purpose for being in the gated community?

You can't question the story of Martin at all. It's not allowed.

It's set in stone. He was just walking along with skittles and iced tea.

Or skillets according to Al Sharpton.

 

[bookitty]

I keep hearing about the red jacket masking blood. Dried blood is rust to dark brown, not red. You could see blood on a red jacket or shirt if there was enough of it.

I'm just not sure what could be seen on any color jacket under florescent lights on a grainy video.

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, witnesses don't agree on who was crying for help, and Zimmerman's story, or rather the stories that his defenders have been pushing, is just idiotic.

The witnesses do agree, I believe. The eye witnesses.

You can't just throw out Zimmerman's story. It's part of the case. It's one of the first things he said to the police. No one would help him.

Besides, there may well be another race narrative there that no one wants to talk about.

Did bystanders refuse to help Zimmerman because he was white?

If they had come to help, maybe Martin doesn't get shot?

Did they not help because a black man was beating a white man?

Speculation of course, but I am actually surprised not to hear it mentioned.

 

[crimresearch]

Sort of. There's still the complicated mess of hate crimes.

Has anyone provided a good reference to the fact that actual hate crimes are being pursued (other than the media throwing around hot button words)?

Nothing in the narrative so far comes anywhere close. James Byrd was a hate crime.

*These* are hate crimes: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes

The OCR may be investigating on the basis of allegation that the local PD is allowing the civil rights of black people to be trampled, but that would be a different set of statutes.

 

[johnny karate]

That's not illegal. Profiling/flat out racism and following someone isn't a crime, under any law. It doesn't matter what inspired him to follow Trayvon.

I never claimed it was illegal, and it certainly matters when determining who was the aggressor.

If (notice the if) Zimmerman's story is true, Zimmerman stopped following him and was heading back to his car, when Trayvon approached him, asked him if he had a problem, then attacked him. Again, if that story is true, then Trayvon was in the wrong, not for being black and wearing a hoodie, for confronting his follower with violence. The problem, that has been so since the beginning, is there is nothing to counter the aspects of Zimmerman's story that matter the most.

I did notice the "if", and it's a big one. Everything that follows can be filed under the heading "Facts not in evidence".

What we do know, what fact is in evidence, is that it was Zimmerman's actions that initiated the encounter. It was Zimmerman's reckless and irresponsibly behavior that led to a shooting death. That seems to get overlooked.

 

[crimresearch]

The witnesses do agree, I believe. The eye witnesses.

You can't just throw out Zimmerman's story. It's part of the case. It's one of the first things he said to the police. No one would help him.

Besides, there may well be another race narrative there that no one wants to talk about.

Did bystanders refuse to help Zimmerman because he was white?

If they had come to help, maybe Martin doesn't get shot?

Did they not help because a black man was beating a white man?

Speculation of course, but I am actually surprised not to hear it mentioned.

Considering that 'white' came from the media and others ignorant of Hispanic culture assuming wrongly that the name Zimmerman couldn't be anything but white...

... and the fact that he was in fact, quite brown, I'd say that speculation should go back home.

 

[Mumbles]

Considering that 'white' came from the media and others ignorant of Hispanic culture assuming wrongly that the name Zimmerman couldn't be anything but white...

... and the fact that he was in fact, quite brown, I'd say that speculation should go back home.

The photos I've seen of him don't look very brown at all. And the idea that "white" and "Hispanic" are mutually exclusive is false. As is the idea that "black" and "Hispanic" are mutually exclusive. "Hispanic" is not a racial group.

 

[johnny karate]

Pretzel logic.

'We can't know' means just that. We can't know what constituted 'suspicious' in the minds of either person. Saying that is ignoring something that *you* can't possibly know either, and trying to assign those who point out the obvious to the 'pro-Zimmerman camp' is specious.
That doesn't just exclude the middle, it makes lace out of it.

We *can* point out that what Martin was doing would have been perfectly normal in our own minds (as a lot of people here keep saying, and you keep ignoring), but we have no midn eading skills or abilities that let us 'know' what another person was thinking.

The job of the prosecution will be to create a negative impression of what Zimmerman was thinking, the job of the defense will be to create a plasuible alternative...

And the job of the jury will be to decide what *they* do or don't think was in the shooter's mind.

But saying 'We don't know' here and now is simply a rational assessment of reality, not some sort of 'camp'.

We do know there is zero evidence Martin was doing anything wrong.

We do know that Zimmerman acted recklessly and irresponsibly.

We do know that Martin ended up dead as a result of Zimmerman's actions.

To pretend otherwise - that Zimmerman and Martin were somehow of equal standing before their encounter, and the Zimmerman wasn't the aggressor - is disingenuous.

I'm not sure what part of that logic you consider pretzel-like.

 

[johnny karate]

You can't question the story of Martin at all. It's not allowed.

It's set in stone. He was just walking along with skittles and iced tea.

Do you have any evidence that any of this is not true? Or are the calls for wild speculation to end only reserved for that which impugns Zimmerman?

 

[Mumbles]

The witnesses do agree, I believe. The eye witnesses.

You can't just throw out Zimmerman's story. It's part of the case. It's one of the first things he said to the police. No one would help him.

Besides, there may well be another race narrative there that no one wants to talk about.

Did bystanders refuse to help Zimmerman because he was white?

If they had come to help, maybe Martin doesn't get shot?

Did they not help because a black man was beating a white man?

Speculation of course, but I am actually surprised not to hear it mentioned.

There are only two eye witnesses that saw the actual fight, and they don't agree on much of anything. And while we can't discount Zimmerman's story, the fact that it places him far from the crime scene where he was found, and that it's directly contradicted by his own 911 call, means that it's false. Sorry, people don't get punched in the face from behind, while checking street names in a backyard.

And your alternate race narrative is a joke. If you believe it...well, study history for a bit.

 

[LTC8K6]

Considering that 'white' came from the media and others ignorant of Hispanic culture assuming wrongly that the name Zimmerman couldn't be anything but white...

... and the fact that he was in fact, quite brown, I'd say that speculation should go back home.

White came from the Martin family lawyer, iirc. They have been orchestrating the media circus all along.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/03/24/142983/martin-familys-lawyers-no-strangers.html

Besides, Zimmerman is apparently not wanted in the Hispanic community.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/l...miss-george-zimmerman-question-his-ethnicity/

 

[Unabogie]

A few questions:

1> Why was TM in a gated community?
2> Is there a guarded entrance?
3> If he drove a car there, where was it parked?
4> Did Zimmerman say that he saw TM going between houses?
5> What was the time of day?
6> Did TM have any business, friends, or purpose for being in the gated community?

7. Was he carrying his birth certificate?

(amirite?)

 

[LTC8K6]

There are only two eye witnesses that saw the actual fight, and they don't agree on much of anything. And while we can't discount Zimmerman's story, the fact that it places him far from the crime scene where he was found, and that it's directly contradicted by his own 911 call, means that it's false. Sorry, people don't get punched in the face from behind, while checking street names in a backyard.

And your alternate race narrative is a joke. If you believe it...well, study history for a bit.

Narrative? If I believe it?

It's speculation and I labeled it as such.

Stop with the "punched from behind" garbage already. It's made up. No one who has followed the case would write that junk.

You are complaining about my speculation while blatantly making up a story.

 

[332nd]

A few questions:

1> Why was TM in a gated community?
2> Is there a guarded entrance?
3> If he drove a car there, where was it parked?
4> Did Zimmerman say that he saw TM going between houses?
5> What was the time of day?
6> Did TM have any business, friends, or purpose for being in the gated community?

1. He was visiting his father.
2. No.
3. Don't know if he drove there initially, but if he did it would likely be at his father's house.
4. Depends on what you mean by between houses.
5. About 7pm.
6. See 1.

Anything else?

 

[johnny karate]

White came from the Martin family lawyer, iirc. They have been orchestrating the media circus all along.

Yeah, Zimmerman shooting their son played right into their hands.

 

[sgtbaker]

Sort of. There's still the complicated mess of hate crimes.

Hate crimes also involve something more than profiling and following; whether it be intimidation, crime against a person (physical), or crime against property.