Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[tyr_13]

I posted this in the other thread on the Martin shooting, but I think it bears mentioning here:



Folks, let's just take a few steps back, breathe deeply, and check ourselves...

Yeah. This sentiment comes up every five pages or so. I agree for what it's worth.

 

[LTC8K6]

I got off the phone with a friend, someone who actually knows the law, and someone who has a better understanding of what's been happening. We wound up agreeing about a lot of things, and just a few of these:

1.) While there are those who are claiming we should have captured Osama Bin Laden and brought him to trial here in the US, these same people on this board are demanding instant justice regarding George Zimmerman.

2.) There has been little condemnation regarding the New Black Panther Party and their bounty on George Zimmerman's head. Add to this the retweet by Spike Lee, and his apology that he got the wrong address, (no word that what he was doing was contributing to the mob mentality that now seems to permeate.)

3.) We have little medical information, and probably won't until trial, assuming there is one.

4.) In other words, folks, we have little solid evidence. Much of what is making up this thread is speculation.

I am not a lawyer, (and for emphasis, I've written it out), so I cannot claim ANY understanding of anything until much of this comes to trial. Frankly, when an attorney who has been trained to have a clear understanding of law looks at this and says, "I don't have enough information," my money sits there.

I'm upset that people I respect(ed) have treated the whole concept of skepticism with such contempt. UNTIL EVIDENCE IS PRESENTED IN A COURT OF LAW, WE KNOW NOTHING.

And tragically, the chances now of George Zimmerman getting a fair trial are slim. If I were his attorney, the first thing I'd do is ask prospective jurors just what they knew. My guess is that so much "information" has been spoon fed by the media to so many of us, that there's almost no chance of finding anyone who hasn't made up their mind, save for that collection of people with just enough of an IQ to grunt.

Good luck with that.

Well, we are either going to discuss the case, or not.

If we are going to discuss it, then we are naturally going to be speculating, and we are all forced to run with whatever we have available.

As for the media, it's been that way for a long time with cases such as this one.

 

[epepke]

Pardon me if this has already been discussed, but in Australia if Zimmerman was the victim of a simple mugging his injuries (if any) would still have been photographed for evidence purposes. It seems logical that in a case involving a dead body that the police would have asked for such photographs. Do procedures differ in the USA, or should such photographs exist if Zimmerman really was injured and really did want to document it to cover himself legally?

Procedures do not differ. Such would be exquisitely photographed.

However, as I think is manifest in this thread, people don't really want to wait for the evidence; they want to jump to conclusions based on news reports.

 

[Roadtoad]

Well, we are either going to discuss the case, or not.

If we are going to discuss it, then we are naturally going to be speculating, and we are all forced to run with whatever we have available.

???

Coming from you, I find this more than a little astonishing.

I would tend to think that such speculation would be derived from FACT, rather than some of the wild forays into the hinterlands some have taken.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Thanks. FWIW: I think it does cast doubt but I suspect that experts will find it not probative for purpose of court.

I think we all expect that there is actual medical documentation that will be available for any trial that will actually be .... probative. ( not a word I use often )

The video was leaked. If it was leaked by someone to help GZ, they did a piss poor job. I haven't decided if I think there are pro-GZ leakers and anti-GZ leakers in the SPD ,or what exactly is going on there.

 

[LTC8K6]

???

Coming from you, I find this more than a little astonishing.

I would tend to think that such speculation would be derived from FACT, rather than some of the wild forays into the hinterlands some have taken.

Well, it seems that whenever you think you have a fact in this case, and make an argument based on it, it turns out your fact wasn't exactly factual, despite being reported that way.

Heck, I knew things were hopeless when the Sanford PD issued a statement about the bounty on Zimmerman's head, but didn't mention anything about putting a stop to it.

 

[LTC8K6]

I think we all expect that there is actual medical documentation that will be available for any trial that will actually be .... probative. ( not a word I use often )

The video was leaked. If it was leaked by someone to help GZ, they did a piss poor job. I haven't decided if I think there are pro-GZ leakers and anti-GZ leakers in the SPD ,or what exactly is going on there.

I think the leaks are intended to be followed up.

Leak some info.
Wait for a response.
Leak info rebutting the response.

For example:

Leak video of Zimmerman arriving at PD.
Response: "Video shows Zimmerman Uninjured!" "PD Lied!" "Report falsified!"
Leak photos of injuries and clothing.

 

[crimresearch]

I think the leaks are intended to be followed up.

Leak some info.
Wait for a response.
Leak info rebutting the response.

For example:

Leak video of Zimmerman arriving at PD.
Response: "Video shows Zimmerman Uninjured!" "PD Lied!" "Report falsified!"
Leak photos of injuries and clothing.

The timing with which new information, statements, leaked evidence, and claims appears should earn *someone* a Screen Writers Award.

 

[triforcharity]

1.) While there are those who are claiming we should have captured Osama Bin Laden and brought him to trial here in the US, these same people on this board are demanding instant justice regarding George Zimmerman.

Well, I guess the difference is because Zimmerman didn't sanction and help facilitate the killing of thousands of people, including ~3,000 on American soil....

But, we're discussing the case based on what we have. People can and will make up their minds.

The difference is, when the rest of the evidence comes out, will that opinion be based on facts, and if not, will that opinion change?

I know that I have made up my mind, but if I see evidence that challenges that opinion, I will gladly change my mind.

Cheers!

 

[Kestrel]

1.) While there are those who are claiming we should have captured Osama Bin Laden and brought him to trial here in the US, these same people on this board are demanding instant justice regarding George Zimmerman.

No, our problem is that George Zimmerman chased after and killed someone and it wasn't investigated properly. It's the kind of question that should be dealt with in a court of law instead of by the old boy network in Florida.

 

[sgtbaker]

I think we all expect that there is actual medical documentation that will be available for any trial that will actually be .... probative. ( not a word I use often )

The video was leaked. If it was leaked by someone to help GZ, they did a piss poor job. I haven't decided if I think there are pro-GZ leakers and anti-GZ leakers in the SPD ,or what exactly is going on there.

*speculation*

My best guess is these leaks are probably simply promoney.

As an aside, you know you are obsessed when you sign off the computer, to get away from it but a half hour later, you are in bed responding to posts on your phone. I think it's time I give this topic a rest.

 

[varwoche]

Gee I hope I never end up going in the same direction as you.

As if Zimmerman was blythely strolling along in the same direction. What a truly absurd comment.

 

[epepke]

The only things I can tell to even a reasonable degree of certainty are as follows:

1) The whole situation is a tragedy and also a Rule 10 violation.

2) Any connection to the so-called Stand Your Ground law is tenuous at best. Even George Takei agrees.

3) Jerry Rivers, dba Geraldo Rivera, probably so as not to appear too Jewish, is a Rule 10 violation.

4) Spike Lee is a Rule 10 violation.

5) Many people obviously have a great deal of fun asserting that it has something to do with their ideological preconceptions, but the connection to reality is also tenuous at best.

6) For some reason, the software on this site only highlights occasional uses of the string "Rule 10."

 

[crimresearch]

As if Zimmerman was blythely strolling along in the same direction. What a truly absurd comment.

Really?

Because Lefty's claim that an obviously Hispanic man in a nice jacket and shirt with short hair 'looks like a banger'(#3396), and there is a '90% chance' they'll kill you (#3645), would seem 'absurd' to me.

And definitely not the 'direction' I favor.

Just saying...

 

[Mumbles]

I got off the phone with a friend, someone who actually knows the law, and someone who has a better understanding of what's been happening. We wound up agreeing about a lot of things, and just a few of these:

1.) While there are those who are claiming we should have captured Osama Bin Laden and brought him to trial here in the US, these same people on this board are demanding instant justice regarding George Zimmerman.

Well, most people are asking for an arrest and trial, and not some sort of execution.

2.) There has been little condemnation regarding the New Black Panther Party and their bounty on George Zimmerman's head. Add to this the retweet by Spike Lee, and his apology that he got the wrong address, (no word that what he was doing was contributing to the mob mentality that now seems to permeate.)

Lee's made his apology to the people affected, so there's not too much left there. And the NBPP only received minor condemnation because they're a fringe group that never accomplishes anything, and it's not worth elevating them.

3.) We have little medical information, and probably won't until trial, assuming there is one.

Well, yes. The point, again, is to have a trial. The entire point was that the police were, basically, stonewalling and serving up falsehoods and unlikely stories about the basic facts of the case, and generally not doing a good job at investigating, or at public relations.

And tragically, the chances now of George Zimmerman getting a fair trial are slim. If I were his attorney, the first thing I'd do is ask prospective jurors just what they knew. My guess is that so much "information" has been spoon fed by the media to so many of us, that there's almost no chance of finding anyone who hasn't made up their mind, save for that collection of people with just enough of an IQ to grunt.

Let's be honest - without the protests, the chances of Zimmerman receiving a fair trial were none. Because he'd have been allowed to walk. The cops apparently didn't bother to even interview the person that Martin was on the phone with during the attack. The fact is, Martin's family actively pushed for media coverage, and for protests, for exactly this reason. That's why they're at the rallies, and that's why they asked Sharpton and Jackson to help out. And that's why this exploded after the 911 tapes were released and proved that Chief Lee was making false statements to the press.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Now GZ's brother is weighing in. Between the brother and the father they aren't doing GZ any favors. The more they exaggerate the injuries to GZ given the video of GZ at the police department, the more dishonest GZ's version sounds (assuming the brother and father are repeating GZ's story given directly to them).

 

[nadsat]

Now GZ's brother is weighing in. Between the brother and the father they aren't doing GZ any favors. The more they exaggerate the injuries to GZ given the video of GZ at the police department, the more dishonest GZ's version sounds (assuming the brother and father are repeating GZ's story given directly to them).

I don't see how it's exaggerated. He's just repeating what GZ claimed. He also said medical records at the scene will substantiate the injuries claim.

link: http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2012/03/30/piers-zimmerman-bro-interview.cnn

 

[Cylinder]

No, our problem is that George Zimmerman chased after and killed someone and it wasn't investigated properly. It's the kind of question that should be dealt with in a court of law instead of by the old boy network in Florida.

The State of Florida is following the law as it is written. Zimmerman has immunity from detention or arrest until the state finds probable cause that the shooting was not justified. The original State Attorney held this view and the special prosecutor that has had jurisdiction for a week now has thus far failed to execute an arrest warrant.

That in itself tells me that this case isn't as cut-and-dry as it's being portrayed.

Let's assume for argument that Zimmerman acted in the most heinous manner possible - that he actively sought out a young black man to murder. If a prosecutor charges Zimmerman without evidence to rebut his jusitification claim, the charge will not survive an immunity hearing and Zimmerman will walk without no option to be charged at some future date.

As far as the claim that the crime was covered up out of the gate, remember that the Sanford Police Department wanted to proceed with manslaughter charges, but the State Attorney refused, citing the immunity statute.

 

[nadsat]

citing the immunity statute.

I think you've talked about this before. Can you relink to this statute or to the post where you talked about it. I glanced over your post(s) and now am curious.

I've been saying the SA refused to press charges due to lack of evidence and or know Zimmerman is protected by Florida's Stand Your Ground law.

Is this wrong?

 

[Cylinder]

Can you relink to this statute or to the post where you talked about it.

The long version is here.

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

To paraphrase, when a claim of justification is made, the state is prevented from arresting or even detaining in custody [sub (1)] the suspect. The state is allowed to open a homicide investigation but may not make arrest without probable cause that the use of force was unlawful [sub (2)].

I've been saying the SA refused to press charges due to lack of evidence and or know Zimmerman is protected by Florida's Stand Your Ground law.

Is this wrong?

That's correct. The State Attorney decided that the state did not have probable cuase to act on the police recomendation of manslaughter charges - at least as I understand the reasoning.