Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[sgtbaker]

You know, at some point while we're all engaging in these mental gymnastics to figure out what Martin might have done to warrant being shot to death, Occam's Razor has to come into play.

Zimmerman is the one with a violent history.

Zimmerman was the one with the gun.

Zimmerman was the one who pursued Martin, who at the time was guilty of the crime of minding his own business while walking home from the store.

In the end, Martin ended up dead.

Now, there certainly exists the possibility that while Zimmerman was innocently following Martin around with a gun, Martin decided viciously attack him for no reason at all before going home to enjoy his Skittles and iced tea.

But for some nagging reason, that version of events doesn't quite wash for me.

Well, I will take comfort in the fact that we have due process and trials to prevent everyone from resting on Occam's Razor. Sometimes humans just aren't that simple.

It's about determining what happened, not making George Zimmerman a liar

Do you realize how many times the media has gotten aspects of this case wrong and it immediately becomes another cloud of doubt cast on Zimmerman's claim; used to show how his story doesn't line up, ragardless of the fact that the man only gave one account of what happened?

 

[crimresearch]

Not only that, paramedics are only certified, not licensed. That means they function under very limited protocols. They are not allowed to do just anything, trained or not.

In Florida, EMT and Paramedic 'certification' and 'licensed' are used interchangeably by the state agency responsible for issuance.

http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/EMT-Paramedic/emt-lic-requirements.html

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I saw him say in another video that it did need stitches but by the time they got to the hospital it was too late. In the police report, though, it stated that Zimmerman declined medical treatment.

In the video that I linked, when he was asked if he would produce medical records for the hospital visit he only said that he was not going to try this case in the public (a tad late for that) and that all the documentation would be brought out in court.

Well "by the time he got to the hospital" would have to have been more than 24 hours for it to be "too late".

A lawyer would logically advise a client to seek medical care to have the wounds documented if the police failed to do so.

The timeline for this is fuzzy given public attention to the death was slow to snowball. Who knows what happened in the first week after the killing.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I am talking specifically about Lefty's claim. Not the actual case.

I see. My bad. Carry on.

 

[MattusMaximus]

I posted this in the other thread on the Martin shooting, but I think it bears mentioning here:

One thing that is clear is that there is a helluva lot of emotion being thrown around on all sides of this thing, and the clear winner is the media who are serving up more red meat than you can find at a butcher's shop on this whole mess.

And that is a really poor way to go about investigating a shooting incident such as this. The fact that the poor kid is dead is bad enough, I don't think we do anyone any favors attempting to muddy the waters with baseless speculation, especially given the heavily racial overtones to the whole situation.

Folks, let's just take a few steps back, breathe deeply, and check ourselves...

 

[sgtbaker]

Well "by the time he got to the hospital" would have to have been more than 24 hours for it to be "too late".

A lawyer would logically advise a client to seek medical care to have the wounds documented if the police failed to do so.

The timeline for this is fuzzy given public attention to the death was slow to snowball. Who knows what happened in the first week after the killing.

He didn't have a lawyer at that point. He didn't get a lawyer until much later, at least a week or two.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

In Florida, EMT and Paramedic 'certification' and 'licensed' are used interchangeably by the state agency responsible for issuance.

http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/EMT-Paramedic/emt-lic-requirements.html

They are not using the terms interchangeably, however, they are applying different legal standards in FL than WA.

I am certified as an FNP, a COHN-S and CIC. And I used to be certified as a CCRN. Those are professional certifications like a physician who is "board certified" in a specialty in addition to being licensed. This is a professional certification, not a state certification to practice. I am licensed to practice as an ARNP.

In WA State a licensed professional has a different scope of practice while a certificated provider can only practice under a licensed professional. So all the EMS providers be they EMTs or paramedics can only perform the tasks they are certified to perform. Our state defines a number of certificated workers, those that can start an IV or give an IM or IV drug and so on. All of those with certificates can only practice with a licensed professional actually named on their certificate. While licensed professionals have no such requirement.

FL licenses EMTs according to your link. I would still bet their scope of practice is very limited. The certification they are referring to in the link is an educational certification one would need before becoming licensed. Your certification does not give you license to practice, rather it enables you to get licensed.

 

[johnny karate]

So you admit that you bringing up the term 'lacerations' as a fact was something you now need to 'walk back' from?

Or are you going to try the cheezy trick of pretending that someone else said it?

I... have no idea what you are talking about. Why would I have to walk it back? The claim didn't originate with me. The police report and Zimmerman's lawyer both told us he had scalp lacerations.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

He didn't have a lawyer at that point. He didn't get a lawyer until much later, at least a week or two.

Well someone who is seen for a lac a week or more after it occurred is unlikely to have had a serious injury. And by a week or two, it's extremely unlikely someone could look at a healed wound and say it should have been sutured. If the wound was still open, sure. But to be open a week later is inconsistent with the video, the lack of bleeding etc.

There's no question in my mind the lawyer was exaggerating GZ's injuries.

 

[LTC8K6]

Just got word from a personally reliable source that a new witness may have cropped up claiming to have seen Zimmerman on top of Martin, beating him up, and that Zimmerman shot Martin while on top of him.

Don't quote me, though.

Ahhh, they are taking tonight's CNN witness interview and severely twisting it.

http://www.reddingnewsreview.com/ne...w_witness_confirms_trayvon_mar_12_1000044.htm

 

[johnny karate]

Well, I will take comfort in the fact that we have due process and trials to prevent everyone from resting on Occam's Razor. Sometimes humans just aren't that simple.

I didn't suggest we replace the legal system with Occam's Razor, merely that we quit wasting time imagining these fantastic scenarios in which Martin might have been the aggressor and just deal with the facts.

Do you realize how many times the media has gotten aspects of this case wrong and it immediately becomes another cloud of doubt cast on Zimmerman's claim; used to show how his story doesn't line up, ragardless of the fact that the man only gave one account of what happened?

The laceration claim originated with the police and was reiterated by Zimmerman's lawyer - who claimed it was severe enough to require stitches. I'm not sure how you can blame that on the media.

 

[crimresearch]

They are not using the terms interchangeably, however, they are applying different legal standards in FL than WA.

I am certified as an FNP, a COHN-S and CIC. And I used to be certified as a CCRN. Those are professional certifications like a physician who is "board certified" in a specialty in addition to being licensed. This is a professional certification, not a state certification to practice. I am licensed to practice as an ARNP.

In WA State a licensed professional has a different scope of practice while a certificated provider can only practice under a licensed professional. So all the EMS providers be they EMTs or paramedics can only perform the tasks they are certified to perform. Our state defines a number of certificated workers, those that can start an IV or give an IM or IV drug and so on. All of those with certificates can only practice with a licensed professional actually named on their certificate. While licensed professionals have no such requirement.

FL licenses EMTs according to your link. I would still bet their scope of practice is very limited. The certification they are referring to in the link is an educational certification one would need before becoming licensed. Your certification does not give you license to practice, rather it enables you to get licensed.

Each state writes their own regulations on who can do what.

When I was running wilderness rescue ages ago, we had an MD move to our town and want to join the rescue squad.

I would have thought he could jump right in, but until he went through at least the basic EMT class, he wasn't allowed in the back of the ambulance, MD or not.

 

[crimresearch]

I... have no idea what you are talking about. Why would I have to walk it back? The claim didn't originate with me. The police report and Zimmerman's lawyer both told us he had scalp lacerations.

So who are you saying is walking their claim back?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Each state writes their own regulations on who can do what.

D'uh. I'm pretty sure I said that a while back.

You must think we are all stupid.

 

[sgtbaker]

I didn't suggest we replace the legal system with Occam's Razor, merely that we quit wasting time imagining these fantastic scenarios in which Martin might have been the aggressor and just deal with the facts.

We are not imagining these scenerios, that was Zimmerman's original claim. The unfortunate circumstance is that I by the time the entire report became available, so many alternate theories have been given that it's difficult to believe but this isn't the creation of people comingin defense of Zimmerman. Zimmerman claimed, from the beginning, that he was walking back to his car when Martin attacked him.

The laceration claim originated with the police and was reiterated by Zimmerman's lawyer - who claimed it was severe enough to require stitches. I'm not sure how you can blame that on the media

Even a small flesh wound can be described as a laceration. I don't give too much credence to Zimmerman's lawyer because he seems to be just as quick to make an argument without checking facts. However, you cannot deny that the drips and drabs in which the actual claim was released made it look like Zimmerman was constantly changing his story, despite the fact that there is only one version made by him.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Pardon me if this has already been discussed, but in Australia if Zimmerman was the victim of a simple mugging his injuries (if any) would still have been photographed for evidence purposes. It seems logical that in a case involving a dead body that the police would have asked for such photographs. Do procedures differ in the USA, or should such photographs exist if Zimmerman really was injured and really did want to document it to cover himself legally?

 

[johnny karate]

So who are you saying is walking their claim back?

I didn't say anyone was walking back their claim, but rather the claim itself is being walked back by the perhaps Zimmerman-friendly contingent of this thread who are now telling us that the lack of visible lacerations doesn't really matter, despite the fact that up until the release of that video that Zimmerman suffered scalp lacerations was the accepted narrative.

 

[triforcharity]

http://www.emtt.org/

Tactical as well. The training is for situations where transport might not happen for a while, not cases like Zimmerman's.

Agreed. And thanks for the link. I might consider this.....

Cheers!

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I... have no idea what you are talking about. Why would I have to walk it back? The claim didn't originate with me. The police report and Zimmerman's lawyer both told us he had scalp lacerations.

Ok - bottom line. Did the video PROVE that he had NO lacerations to the back of his scalp ?

 

[bookitty]

You know, at some point while we're all engaging in these mental gymnastics to figure out what Martin might have done to warrant being shot to death, Occam's Razor has to come into play.

Zimmerman is the one with a violent history.

Zimmerman was the one with the gun.

Zimmerman was the one who pursued Martin, who at the time was guilty of the crime of minding his own business while walking home from the store.
In the end, Martin ended up dead.

Now, there certainly exists the possibility that while Zimmerman was innocently following Martin around with a gun, Martin decided viciously attack him for no reason at all before going home to enjoy his Skittles and iced tea.

But for some nagging reason, that version of events doesn't quite wash for me.



It's about determining what happened, not making George Zimmerman a liar.

That one, that's the one that gets me. Martin was 17, not too far away from parental lectures about people who follow you in a car, or get out to stalk you.* They are bad people, the ones who kidnap and rape unwary children. Martin tried to get away at first.

And what would have happened if Martin hadn't ended up dead? Maybe he would have been lucky enough to make it home with a story about a creep that followed him. Maybe the cops would have shown up and questioned his right to walk home from the store with some skittles. Even his "best case scenario" would have sucked.

*And for all of Geraldo's talk of "hoodies" and instant mental associations with gangs, I can't remember a single part of the Stranger Danger speech that involved making the person following you feel like you're no threat.