Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[LTC8K6]

Sorry, here's the link.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...yer-article-1.1052713?localLinksEnabled=false

 

[Giz]

Now the 13 year old witness who saw Zimmerman on the ground, apparently didn't see anything, according to his mom. She says he was pressured.

Pressured by the cops, or pressured by the New Black Panthers? Perhaps they each work shifts so that the case can be screwed up 24/7...


Edit to add (having read the link): If even 1% of the bad press that SPD have gotten turns out to be correct then they must be in the running for 'worst PD in the nation'.

 

[sgtbaker]

Either there is reason to say it was conclusive or not.

Look, I've been more than willing to concede many points in this thread on both sides of the issue. I honestly don't know. If I thought it was at all conclusive I'd be there with bells on.

I just don't know what you were asking, "and?" for.

 

[LTC8K6]

Pressured by the cops, or pressured by the New Black Panthers? Perhaps they each work shifts so that the case can be screwed up 24/7...

It's almost as if the story conflates two witnesses...

 

[johnny karate]

Is there a handbook for what someone is supposed to look like after a struggle for his/her life? What are the injuries consistent with being in a fight for one's life? Where do they have to be? How deep do they have to be? How purple do they have to be?

No, I'm not aware of any handbook other than common sense. It seems reasonable to perhaps lean towards "serious injury" as opposed to "minor injury" before the guns come out. Or maybe I'm wrong on that point. Maybe ever minor dust-up should end in murder.

Zimmerman just said, according to the police report, that he was punched in the face and had his head slammed into the ground. He [Zimmerman] said nothing about a broken nose, he said nothing about lacerations.

Actually, his lawyer said he had a broken nose. I'm fairly certain Zimmerman's lawyer speaks on his behalf. And I'm not sure how Zimmerman would be able to self-diagnose lacerations on the back of his own head.

Either way, the point is, what we were told about what happened at the scene - regardless of the source - does not correspond with what we see in the video.

 

[johnny karate]

According to MSNBC, he did not arrive at the station till four hours after the incident.

That's interesting.

Skeptic Ginger, can you source the claim you made regarding the time span upthread?

It certainly lends more credence to Zimmerman being cleaned up, but it raises the question that if that much time elapsed, why don't we see more swelling from his injuries? Fresh injuries don't always swell up right away, but after four hours... ?

 

[triforcharity]

Concrete is rather abrasive. If someone was having their (wet) scalp banged repeatedly into such a surface, is a single cut and a knot the expected sort of injury they'd end up with?

Not having had any personal experience with the repeatedly thing, I have while rollerblading, fell straight backwards and cracked my head on the concrete.

Here's the thing.

My scalp lac went horizontal, not vertical. I would say that unless it hit directly on the edge of the concrete, it would not go the way it is in the video.

But, to more address your post, possibly.

 

[LTC8K6]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...mmerman-shortly-after-trayvon-martin-shooting

According to MSNBC, he did not arrive at the station till four hours after the incident.

Plenty of time to get stitched up!

(Sorry, I just had to!)

 

[WildCat]

You mean like the only picture supposedly showing an injury that actually is photoshopped?

No, the pictures the police take as evidence.

And I wasn't aware that police reports are considered irrefutable documents of exactly what transpired, and can never, ever under any circumstances be questioned. Thanks for that valuable lesson in jurisprudence!

Yes, it's all a huge conspiracy because the police wanted to protect Zimmerman because ... of something.

 

[sgtbaker]

No, I'm not aware of any handbook that indicates at what point during a fight you're legally allowed to commit murder. But it seems reasonable to perhaps lean towards "serious injury" as opposed to "minor injury" before the guns come out. Or maybe I'm wrong on that point. Maybe ever minor dust-up should end in deadly gun play.

What we can't or will never see evidence for is the claim that Trayvon went for his gun. If that were the case, that indicates that he had no intentions of ending this with a gun. If that is the case than he wasn't responding to the beating with a gun. The gun allegedly didn't become an answer until Trayvon allegedly went for it. Supposing that is true, if some magical fairy produced a new witness with video evidence, would he then be justified in using the gun; is that a reasonable belief that his life is now in danger? Have there ever been self defense cases where the "defender" was justified in believing they were going to be killed and responded with justifiable deadly force, without ever having a scratch on them?

Actually, his lawyer said he had a broken nose. I'm fairly certain Zimmerman's lawyer speaks on his behalf. And I'm not sure how Zimmerman would be able to self-diagnose lacerations on the back of his own head.

Either way, the point is, what we were told about what happened at the scene - regardless of the source - does not correspond with what we see in the video.

The point is, none of this makes George Zimmerman a liar. Even this new one, the fact that his father is now claiming that Trayvon said, "You are going to die tonight." These people may be speaking on behalf of GZ but he [GZ] cannot be held any more responsible for what people are saying on his behalf than Trayvon should be held less of a victim because the media said, on his behalf, that George Zimmerman was never taken into custody, they never took his gun, or the police released him without charging him.

 

[mikedenk]

What nonsense. Sometimes we might shave a site before putting an IV in while still in the field. But I'm sure even in some other state EMS is not shaving the hair around wounds.

As for suturing, that's absurd. You must have no clue how one cleans and assesses any wound before you'd suture it and even the paramedics here in WA which has one of the most progressive prehospital care systems in the country would not be suturing in the field.

I don't know what military experience you are talking about but I can guarantee you EMS does not suture in the field anywhere in the US, (not including wilderness medicine, a whole different thing).

I have been an Army medic for 7 years and get a chance to occasionally work in ERs and do ride-alongs with ambulance/FD crews when stateside, so here's my 2 cents on this and a couple of other med issues...

- Skeptic Ginger is absolutely right, no paramedic is going to suture a laceration while on a call. First, it is unnecessary to stop bleeding, and secondly the ER doc is going to want to inspect the wound and have it irrigated prior to closure.

- Not all broken noses look like this:

or this:

Sometimes they look like this:

I had my own nose broken by a punch (boxing) and it only bled lightly, had no deviation, and was only slightly swollen. Picking it up on a surveillance video would have been difficult at best. It may be that GZ had an injury similar to this... or it may be that his lawyer is stating "broken nose" since it is difficult to disprove (most broken noses will not call for imagery, particularly if there is no deviation).

Likewise with the purported injury to the back of the head, a laceration can vary widely in severity. Lacerations of the scalp do tend to bleed heavily, even if the cut is shallow. A scalp laceration of the size claimed by the DC to be on the video would bleed significantly, IMO. There could also be some confusion on the part of the police officer who stated that he saw lacerations. Police officers are typically trained to a first-responder level which gives them very basic first aid skills. Terminology like "laceration", "abrasion", and "contusion" may become confused, particularly if there is blood obscuring the injury.

 

[leftysergeant]

There is, even in the photoshopped piece of crap, no sign of having his head banged repeatedly on a flat surface. The photroshopped pic shows something of the sort that a narrow object would imprint on his head. At most, he hit his head on the edge of the concrete ONCE.

 

[WildCat]

19:17, time of police arrival on the scene. 19:52 time stamp on the police station video.

I don't see any time stamp on the police station video, where do you see it?

 

[crimresearch]

Have there ever been self defense cases where the "defender" was justified in believing they were going to be killed and responded with justifiable deadly force, without ever having a scratch on them?

Well, if you are going to take all the fun out of it like that...

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Zimmerman didn't have to be wheeled in on a stretcher. He just had to have injuries consistent with being in a fight for his life. Being on the receiving end of a tussle that results in minor injuries isn't justification to commit murder.

And what do those injuries look like ?

ETA: sgtbaker beat me to it

Isn't one of the contentious parts of this situation that you don't have to be thrashed within an inch of your life before you are allowed to take action ?

 

[Roadtoad]

At this point, we know less than nothing. The media has done a fine job of bollixing the whole mess up until we'd almost believe "up" was "down." I wouldn't trust anything at this point until we get down to the courts.

 

[WildCat]

Who here has claimed the police report is bogus? Examples?

johnny karate for one.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

That's interesting.

Skeptic Ginger, can you source the claim you made regarding the time span upthread?

What was that claim ?

 

[crimresearch]

I have been an Army medic for 7 years and get a chance to occasionally work in ERs and do ride-alongs with ambulance/FD crews when stateside, so here's my 2 cents on this and a couple of other med issues...

- Skeptic Ginger is absolutely right, no paramedic is going to suture a laceration while on a call. First, it is unnecessary to stop bleeding, and secondly the ER doc is going to want to inspect the wound and have it irrigated prior to closure.

- Not all broken noses look like this:
[qimg]http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj129/tylerbaldwin8/nose.jpg[/qimg]

or this:
[qimg]http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/kickNpull/maxbrokennose.jpg[/qimg]

Sometimes they look like this:
[qimg]http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d97/mikepet/brokennose004.jpg[/qimg]

I had my own nose broken by a punch (boxing) and it only bled lightly, had no deviation, and was only slightly swollen. Picking it up on a surveillance video would have been difficult at best. It may be that GZ had an injury similar to this... or it may be that his lawyer is stating "broken nose" since it is difficult to disprove (most broken noses will not call for imagery, particularly if there is no deviation).

Likewise with the purported injury to the back of the head, a laceration can vary widely in severity. Lacerations of the scalp do tend to bleed heavily, even if the cut is shallow. A scalp laceration of the size claimed by the DC to be on the video would bleed significantly, IMO. There could also be some confusion on the part of the police officer who stated that he saw lacerations. Police officers are typically trained to a first-responder level which gives them very basic first aid skills. Terminology like "laceration", "abrasion", and "contusion" may become confused, particularly if there is blood obscuring the injury.

Yep. While paramedics may be trained to suture, it isn't something that would ordinarily be done in a situation like this one for exactly the reasons you cite.

 

[leftysergeant]

What we can't or will never see evidence for is the claim that Trayvon went for his gun. If that were the case, that indicates that he had no intentions of ending this with a gun. If that is the case than he wasn't responding to the beating with a gun. The gun allegedly didn't become an answer until Trayvon allegedly went for it. Supposing that is true, if some magical fairy produced a new witness with video evidence, would he then be justified in using the gun; is that a reasonable belief that his life is now in danger?

He had no right to be there, he had no right to frighten Martin. He had the right to defend himself by running like hell and waiting for the cops.

He created a situation where Martin had every reason to believe that he had to take the gun away.

Screw him. He caused Martin's death by his misconduct.