• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

Status
Not open for further replies.
sgtbaker said:
*speculation by me again*
I am no coroner but if he was killed before swelling could set in, wouldn't that sort of prevent any swelling? Discoloration occurs when blood gathers at an impact sight. If the heart is not pumping blood, why would it gather?
Click to expand...
If you hit someone hard enough, it can show even if death comes shortly after. It depends on how hard the hit is.

About that head gash that supposedly just needed cleaning up to not show in the arrest video, it doesn't work that way.

A cut deep enough to require (or almost require :rolleyes: )stitches does not stop bleeding just like that. It would have required at a minimum a bandage or it would have continued to bleed for quite some time. Any cut that goes through the dermis layer into the SQ tissue underneath (the definition of requiring stitches) would have opened larger blood vessels. Such a wound would ooze for hours even with a pressure dressing. The video shows the claim about an injury on the back of GZ's head is a serious exaggeration if not an outright lie.
 
crimresearch said:
Your 'No' seems to be saying that there would be no report from the actual EMS people.

I disagree, I think there would be the police report saying lacerations perhaps inaccurately, and then there would be an EMS form using precise language..

I think that the word 'laceration' came from the police, not EMS, so it isn't a matter of people misinterpreting it, it is a matter of wondering about its accuracy.
Click to expand...

No I was replying to was my interpretation of him/her thinking that there was a difference between fire rescue responding, as opposed to medical emergency. I was just explaining that Fire rescue and medical are one unit in central Florida, they are still paramedics but work for the fire department. I thought he/she was saying that they may have inadvertently used the word laceration because they were not medics. A few posts down, though, I realized that I was completely misunderstanding what he/she was saying.
 
crimresearch said:
Lots of stuff has apparently been been leaked.

And it is a common misconception that HIPAA means that the patient or their authorized representatives cannot have and disseminate their own copys.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure most people know you can disclose your own medical records. :rolleyes: TFC was asking for a report leaked from the EMS persons.
 
Last edited:
Skeptic Ginger said:
If you hit someone hard enough, it can show even if death comes shortly after. It depends on how hard the hit is.

About that head gash that supposedly just needed cleaning up to not show in the arrest video, it doesn't work that way.
Click to expand...

I don't mean to sound racist, or anything but would a little red mark, like the one in that picture show all that clearly on much darker skin?

A cut deep enough to require (or almost require :rolleyes: )stitches does not stop bleeding just like that. It would have required at a minimum a bandage or it would have continued to bleed for quite some time. Any cut that goes through the dermis layer into the SQ tissue underneath (the definition of requiring stitches) would have opened larger blood vessels. Such a wound would ooze for hours even with a pressure dressing. The video shows the claim about an injury on the back of GZ's head is a serious exaggeration if not an outright lie
Click to expand...

It's already been discussed that the quality of the video is not all that great and at about 1:04, when GZ puts his back to the camera and looks down, you can clearly see a knot on the bottom of his head and a possible wound at the top. There have also been pictures shared, a few pages back; snapshots of the back of his head. They very well could have been doctored but they clearly show what I thought I saw, in more detail. I don't know who captured those shots or if they've been altered, so I won't call that evidence. As for the face, I can't see his mouth because his head is down, the whole time. I can't see that great of coloring to see any black circles around his eyes (sometimes occurs with a broken nose) and without a micrometer, I can't tell if his nose is the exact same size as it was, previous to the altercation. You've previously stated that you work in the medical field and gave indications that you've worked in a hospital but I don't know what field. Would you be able to add anything to the broken nose, in question? Does every single broken nose look distorted and out of place or are some more/less severe than others?
 
sgtbaker said:
No I was replying to was my interpretation of him/her thinking that there was a difference between fire rescue responding, as opposed to medical emergency. I was just explaining that Fire rescue and medical are one unit in central Florida, they are still paramedics but work for the fire department. I thought he/she was saying that they may have inadvertently used the word laceration because they were not medics. A few posts down, though, I realized that I was completely misunderstanding what he/she was saying.
Click to expand...
Ahh, my bad.
 
summary of the video
The video shows Zimmerman with his head down, walking through what appears to be the police garage and into a back door. At one point, A Sanford police officer touches something on Zimmerman's shirt or jacket and wipes his hand on his own uniform.
Click to expand...
No police officer today is going to touch blood or an open wound without gloves and they certainly wouldn't wipe someone else's blood on their own uniform.
 
Piggy said:
You might want to read the law again....

If TM was where he had a right to be (which he was) and GZ first stalks him in his vehicle, then gets out and stalks him on foot -- which is enough to make a person feel potentially threatened -- then gets into a confrontation and is acting aggressively, then depending on what happens, it's certainly possible that TM felt he was in danger of immediate bodily harm from GZ (who was older, larger, armed, and obviously agitated) and if so he would have been within his rights to attempt to disable GZ in order to prevent an attack.

Unfortunately, the only living witness to the confrontation itself is GZ.
Click to expand...
I have read the law, however you assessment of it is ridiculous.

The force level of following is zero.
The force level of asking a question is zero.
Without a verbal, or overt threat taking an aggressive action is unwarranted. (IMHO even a verbal threat is not a warrant for a physical action)
Stalking is a specific law which requires more than one occurrence, so this usage is just as silly as your usage of the SYG law.

If I said, "Im gunna kill you", then reach for my gun, THAT is different. The physical action of reaching for my gun would be an overt threat, otherwise you have no warrant to action.

. . and this is all moot, as you have to have evidence that shows this occurred. Otherwise its all imaginary.
 
Last edited:
I've noticed another meme in this thread: they can't have been serious injuries if Zimmerman refused medical treatment.

Because obviously someone who was in a fight and killed someone would be thinking clearly, and not chock full of adrenalin and suffering from shock...

People do crazy/stupid things during a stressful situation. Several people want to sit calmly at a desk, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, and psychoanalyze his decisions.
 
varwoche said:
Pardon my carlessness here:

Jackson didn't say that. Doh.
Click to expand...
Yes, he did!
George Zimmerman, the man who shot Martin, claimed the shooting was in self-defense, but civil rights activists do not believe him.

"A child so innocent, killed by a vigilante. Where he is killed and now we find shot in the back of the head. The man who killed him is still walking the streets, free," said Rev. Jessie Jackson.
Click to expand...
http://www.wnem.com/story/17252293/community-meeting-to-appeal-for-calm-in-martin-case

Rep. Bobby Rush made the same claim in a CNN interview yesterday.
 
sgtbaker said:
I don't mean to sound racist, or anything but would a little red mark, like the one in that picture show all that clearly on much darker skin?
Click to expand...
Actually, yes, injuries like that on black skin are not pink but they are darker than the surrounding skin.


sgtbaker said:
It's already been discussed that the quality of the video is not all that great and at about 1:04, when GZ puts his back to the camera and looks down, you can clearly see a knot on the bottom of his head and a possible wound at the top. There have also been pictures shared, a few pages back; snapshots of the back of his head. They very well could have been doctored but they clearly show what I thought I saw, in more detail. I don't know who captured those shots or if they've been altered, so I won't call that evidence. As for the face, I can't see his mouth because his head is down, the whole time. I can't see that great of coloring to see any black circles around his eyes (sometimes occurs with a broken nose) and without a micrometer, I can't tell if his nose is the exact same size as it was, previous to the altercation. You've previously stated that you work in the medical field and gave indications that you've worked in a hospital but I don't know what field. Would you be able to add anything to the broken nose, in question? Does every single broken nose look distorted and out of place or are some more/less severe than others?
Click to expand...
Wounds that cut a significant depth into the dermis, and especially those that cut through the dermis can literally ooze blood for a day or more. At a minimum a deep cut would either need a pressure bandage or it would continue to bleed for hours.

Any EMTs that saw a patient with a deep cut would have bandaged it. That's first aid 101.

A broken nose does not need to displace the cartilage. But more often than not it does. Cartilage is more flexible than bone so it doesn't 'crack' as easily. It's not impossible, but usually you have to displace the cartilage in order for it to break. A bone, which is harder is also more brittle and can more often crack without being displaced.

As for a black eye from a face punch, it often doesn't show for a day or more. If you broke your nose the bruising would be significant. There is a rich blood supply to any bone and that includes the nasal cartilage. However, without a picture of GZ the following day, we can't say. It might not show that night.

I've been a nurse since 1976 and a nurse practitioner since 1985. I've worked in a dozen different fields including the ED and ICU as well as outpatient family practice. Currently my specialty is occupational infectious disease and I provide services to a number of fire departments for their infectious disease and blood exposures.

I will go back and revisit the images in the last few thread pages.
 
I see one picture that shows what could be a small abrasion in an odd place on the top of GZ's head. It's more on the top than the back. I don't know what to make of it other than to continue to conclude this is not a deep laceration. At most it is a small abrasion.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I see one picture that shows what could be a small abrasion in an odd place on the top of GZ's head. It's more on the top than the back. I don't know what to make of it other than to continue to conclude this is not a deep laceration. At most it is a small abrasion.
Click to expand...

Do you think it's too late to be interviewed by O'Donnell?
 
triforcharity said:
Correct. Even if it was a witness with medical training, they would be bound by HIPPA.
Click to expand...
A bystander is not bound by HIPAA (everyone spells it wrong, including me sometimes) but the police are. It wouldn't matter if you had medical training or not. What matters is if you obtain medical information in the line of your duties. A bystander acting under a Good Sam law who provided medical care would probably be covered under the act.
 
triforcharity said:
Correct. Even if it was a witness with medical training, they would be bound by HIPPA.
Click to expand...
Not if they weren't a health care *provider*. HIPAA is very specific in who it applies to...


By your standard, if the cop or a witness, or for that matter, even a news reporter... had CPR/First Responder training (which many people do), then they couldn't write any patient or medical information in any public report.

In any case, this video seems to be about as useful right now as the 'goon' tape recording.
 
Last edited:
Any injuries that showed up the next day, AFTER Zimmerman had been allowed to go home, would have to be viewed with suspicion. By this point, Zimmerman had his defense and could easily have hurt himself to bolster his story. After all, his freedom was now on the line. I'd take more stock of injuries apparent at the scene, while even those could have been self-inflicted.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom