Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Cylinder]

Ahh.. I see where you are getting that.

This was a *post* trial motion for something that should have prevented the trial from ever happening... the court mentions 'legally sufficient' for that standard, and it is lower.

Yup. That was my mistake.

 

[Piggy]

So people who are bleeding profusely on their buzzed cut head are simply left to bleed? Seriously? Look, he could have some superficial cuts. I honestly don't know. What I do know is that what he looks like doesn't match the description of his injuries. At all.

Not only that, but he's walking around fine, needed no medical attention beyond a clean-up, by all accounts.

Which will make it very difficult for a jury to believe that he was ever in fear for his life, or in a situation he could not have gotten out of.

If anyone had been pummelling GZ and smashing his head against the pavement, he would have been taken to an ER, and he probably wouldn't be walking around like he just strolled off the beach.

I think the footage will hurt him at trial.

 

[Xulld]

Those might be possible moments at which things could have stopped, but in Martin's case, the question would be 'would a reasonable person in that situation *with similar knowledge* feel that the threat was safely eliminated by either of those 2 things'?

And that opens up a massive amount of speculation as to what a deceased person might have been thinking.

Makes sense, but from Zimmerman's position would the fact that Martin continued the attack after both of those moments constitute a situation where no end of the attack was insight?

If a person is being continuously attacked is that not a reason to believe your life is in danger?

 

[aggle-rithm]

To knock someone down with one punch is not easy. Most people, seeing how effortless it is on TV and movies, would probably break the bones in their hand attempting it.

Also, to kill someone with one shot is not easy. Most shooting victims survive because a wound to the torso is more likely than not to miss any vital structures.

Incredible bad luck that both these things happened.

 

[Unabogie]

Yes, considering the Sanford police are no longer investigating.

But that took weeks, didn't it? All of that time, they never contacted her?

 

[crimresearch]

OK - I'm stupid.

The pre-trial claim of immunity is based on the preponerance of the evidence - whichever account the judge feels to have been proven by the evidence to be more likely than the other. If the defendant's claim is accepted, then immunity is granted.

If the pre-trial claim is denied, the matter proceeds to trial at which point the defense can maintain the claim of justification. At that point a prima facie establishment of self-defense must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be untrue or incorrect.

Not stupid.

Lawyers and legislators aren't necessarily all that bright, they just know how to weave a web of verbage guaranteeed to numb the mind.

 

[LTC8K6]

Not only that, but he's walking around fine, needed no medical attention beyond a clean-up, by all accounts.

Which will make it very difficult for a jury to believe that he was ever in fear for his life, or in a situation he could not have gotten out of.

If anyone had been pummelling GZ and smashing his head against the pavement, he would have been taken to an ER, and he probably wouldn't be walking around like he just strolled off the beach.

I think the footage will hurt him at trial.

I can't see this ever going to trial. It will be no charges, or a plea, I think.

Or Zimmerman gets killed along the way, or can't stand the pressure and commits suicide.

 

[Unabogie]

Criminals often use such ruses before they attack. The reality is you cannot judge someone approaching you based on anything short of a direct threat.

Not saying anything during the approach is not a threat.

Saying, "hey why are you in this neighborhood", is not a direct threat.

If someone approaches you, and you have reason to believe they have a gun, you should never attempt to take there gun from them without a direct threat being present. They could be police, the gun could have nothing to do with their intent.

I carry, so I would not try to take a gun anyways even if presented with a real threat. Id draw. However I would never draw on someone who has not presented a real threat.

I would try to get distance while making it clear I feel threatened (vocalization), not attack myself and find myself in a situation where they intended no harm.

Regardless it is not a well formed argument to say someone approaching, heck even running to catch up to you is a direct threat.

Trust me, if at any time someone tries to grab for my gun they have initiated a deadly encounter. Without a verbal threat, or a specific action which is indicative of a threat, such as reaching for my gun, this line of thought is without merit.

What source do you have for this? I am often suspicious of many things and do a good job of not showing that, sounds to me like you are just speculating.

Someone can be a complete jerk, and still not be a direct threat. This fact belies any such consideration. I have had many encounters with rude people and none of them involved me hitting that person as some kind of preemptive means of defending myself. Just sounds ridiculous to even talk about it in that way.

According to that linked MSNBC report, the police told Trayvon's father that Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned, was beating him, and that Zimmerman managed to unholster his gun and shoot Trayvon while Trayvon was on top.

If that's what Zimmerman said, then at no point did Martin go for the gun, even according to Zimmerman.

 

[LTC8K6]

But that took weeks, didn't it? All of that time, they never contacted her?

She's been subpoenaed to the Grand Jury, so I would have to assume they spoke to her along the way somewhere.

She was in the hospital for a while.

 

[triforcharity]

Why would it make any difference if they were working for the FD, or rescue squad, or some ambulance service? EMS training in Florida is standardized.
http://www.fl-ems.com/RulesStatutes/rulesreghome.html

Their report is more likely to use medical terminology accurately than the police report.

Does anyone have a link to any person with medical training describing the injuries on the scene?

You won't find such a thing do to patient confidentiality.

 

[Xulld]

According to that linked MSNBC report, the police told Trayvon's father that Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned, was beating him, and that Zimmerman managed to unholster his gun and shoot Trayvon while Trayvon was on top.

If that's what Zimmerman said, then at no point did Martin go for the gun, even according to Zimmerman.

I agree, I was responding to another poster who was making it sound like Martin was justified in a preemptive attack becuase a person was chasing to catch up, and Martin may have seen a firearm.

I was explaining anything short of Zimmerman going for his gun (prior to the attack), or a vocal threat, would not be a justification for an attack.

Idle speculation, and really a silly argument. The right thing to do if you feel threatened by someone's behavior, but that behavior is not an overt threat is to wait, to try to gain distance, and vocalize your suspicions, not to attack preemptively.

It was a vague and silly argument, I probably should not have even responded.

 

[Cylinder]

At any rate, after hours of reading and total adbiction of my responsibilities at work, I've come to the conclusion that Perterson is the overriding procedural precedent and that the case law is pretty slim pickuns.

That concludes Internet Attorney 101 for today. Tommorow's lesson: Would being fired for posting on a meesage board constitute an unlawful termination action?

 

[triforcharity]

No, the public emergency response in Central Florida, and as far as I know Brevard and Indian River Counties have combined paramedics with the fire department. Anything medical would be a fire rescue response.

ETA: I am getting this confused. I know this is how it is in Orange County, but I think Sanford is outside of OC. I might be wrong on this one.

No you're right. SFD is the first response for medial calls. I don't know if they are the ones who transport or if that is handled by another department or private service.

 

[Piggy]

I can't see this ever going to trial. It will be no charges, or a plea, I think.

Or Zimmerman gets killed along the way, or can't stand the pressure and commits suicide.

Well, it's certainly possible that it won't go to trial, but I'd bet that the grand jury finds sufficient justification for one. If so, I have a hard time seeing Zimmerman plea, but that might happen, too.

Only time and the good people of the State of Florida will tell.

 

[Piggy]

I agree, I was responding to another poster who was making it sound like Martin was justified in a preemptive attack becuase a person was chasing to catch up, and Martin may have seen a firearm.

I was explaining anything short of Zimmerman going for his gun (prior to the attack), or a vocal threat, would not be a justification for an attack.

You might want to read the law again....

If TM was where he had a right to be (which he was) and GZ first stalks him in his vehicle, then gets out and stalks him on foot -- which is enough to make a person feel potentially threatened -- then gets into a confrontation and is acting aggressively, then depending on what happens, it's certainly possible that TM felt he was in danger of immediate bodily harm from GZ (who was older, larger, armed, and obviously agitated) and if so he would have been within his rights to attempt to disable GZ in order to prevent an attack.

Unfortunately, the only living witness to the confrontation itself is GZ.

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, it's certainly possible that it won't go to trial, but I'd bet that the grand jury finds sufficient justification for one. If so, I have a hard time seeing Zimmerman plea, but that might happen, too.

Only time and the good people of the State of Florida will tell.

It may never get to the Grand Jury.

IIRC the prosecutor has said in no uncertain terms that she doesn't need to wait for the Grand Jury. She can decide on the evidence.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...-jury-special-prosecutor-civil-rights-leaders

Also, the other agencies investigating apparently don't want the Grand Jury to rule on the case while they are investigating.

 

[sgtbaker]

Errr... no, it doesn't matter who they worked for, they would have used a run sheet. They should never treat someone for head injuries, and just drive away with no documentation *especially* if the person refused transport.
(Note that in some articles, Zimmerman's lawyer is saying something about being denied hospital care... that's exactly why those forms are filled out).


And their choice to say abrasion, laceration, contusion, etc. would be more useful than the police report using the word laceration.

If they wrote 'minor abrasions, saline debridement and applied Vionex' that would be consistent with what the video shows.

I am not making any claim as to who said what. As for head injuries, they still ultimately leave it up to the patient. The patient usually has to sign a waiver stating that they do not wish to go to the hospital. I don't know how accurate what the attorney states actually is because according to the police report Zimmerman opted out of going to the hospital (I think that is how it was worded). I don't know what you are saying, "Um no" to.

 

[crimresearch]

You won't find such a thing do to patient confidentiality.

Lots of stuff has apparently been been leaked.

And it is a common misconception that HIPAA means that the patient or their authorized representatives cannot have and disseminate their own copys.

http://www.physiciansnews.com/law/603artz.html

 

[Roadtoad]

Apologies if you've already seen this, but ABC's take from yesterday...

 

[crimresearch]

... I don't know what you are saying, "Um no" to.

Originally Posted by LTC8K6
I was wondering if there'd be another description of Zimmerman's injuries in the call for medics for comparison.

REPLY -sgtbaker- No because if it's anything like Kissimee/Orlando, the medics word for the Fire Department.

Your 'No' seems to be saying that there would be no report from the actual EMS people to compare with the police report, because they all work for the same city.

I disagree, I think there would be the police report saying lacerations perhaps inaccurately, and then there would be an EMS form using precise language..

I think that the word 'laceration' came from the police, not EMS, so it isn't a matter of people misinterpreting it, it is a matter of wondering about its accuracy.