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Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

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WildCat said:
A lot of people in this thread are really hung up on the neighborhood watch thing, as if it's actually relevant. It's an informal organization that has no legal bearing at all. Joining a neighborhood watch imposes no responsibilities at all on the individual, you may as well claim he broke the rules of the boy scouts.
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It demonstrates the irresponsibility and recklessness of his actions. The reason it's important to consider those rules he flouted is because the reason they are in place is for safety purposes. Usually, breaking the rules of the Boy Scouts doesn't lead to someone's death. However, breaking the rules of the neighborhood watch - in this case - did.
 
crimresearch said:
That is so far from the reality, or even common sense, as to invite ridicule.

Provoked the fight by following? By questioning? Even by shoving or grabbing?

And that forfeits any right to defend one's self no matter what danger emerges from the confrontation?


Zimmerman's claim to self defense is looking a little puny right now, but not because of that bit of imaginary jurisprudence.
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I'm just going by links provided earlier in the thread. I'll try to find them....

ETA: I believe it was in the links to the Florida conceal carry rules... I can't seem to find it.
 
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WildCat said:
And now the lack of visible bruising on a low-res surveillance video is evidence?

Christ on a stick, this is reminiscent of truthers who claim the airplane that hit the World Trade Center had no windows so was obviously a drone, offering low-res video as proof.
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Of course it's evidence. And I wrote earlier that those policemen will be key witnesses in any criminal trial. It's been leaked that the police didn't believe his story. If that's true, isn't a lack of visible injuries a likely reason why?

But why on earth isn't a video evidence? Can you see bandages for his broken nose? Blood stains on his shirt?

Did you even watch the video?
 
EGarrett said:
...and people's perception of chaotic events is extraordinarily flawed during the actual event. If you had asked the officers who shot Amadou Diallo what happened DURING the shooting, they would've said that Diallo has a gun and he'd just shot one of the other officers. If you asked them afterward when they had time to look around and take a deep breath, they would've said that the other office actually tripped and wasn't shot and that Diallo didn't have a gun after all.

In other words, her 911 call was DURING the incident, this is more flawed than testimony after.
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Oh, I don't dispute what you're saying.

But what I'm saying is that memories don't improve upon reflection.

If you were confused during the event, you won't get any clearer later, although you might believe that you do.

There's a part of your brain that's responsible for making sense of the world, which is why you don't notice your visual blind spot (and why people who lose half their visual field don't even notice that!) and whether you want it to or not it will generate a coherent memory for you.

But that memory will not, and cannot, be more accurate than your perception at the time.

It can only be less so.
 
WildCat said:
And now the lack of visible bruising on a low-res surveillance video is evidence?

Christ on a stick, this is reminiscent of truthers who claim the airplane that hit the World Trade Center had no windows so was obviously a drone, offering low-res video as proof.
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You have it backwards. The lack of injuries on that video fails to substantiate Zimmerman's claim that he was injured, it doesn't necessarily substantiate a claim that he wasn't injured.
 
Unabogie said:
If a stranger chases you at night and then shoves and grabs you, that's clearly assault, is it not?
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Last I checked it was a misdemeanor battery at most... far from a forcible felony.

The notion that 'starting it' leaves the other person legally free to respond,with deadly force and you aren't allowed to defend yourself against the higher level of threat because you started it is not rational at all.

All the legal standards of force against force are predicated on reasonably proportionate force.
 
johnny karate said:
He knew those rules existed. Presumably, he knew why those rules existed. He decided that in that moment, they didn't apply to him. That's reckless and irresponsible.
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Do tell, what legal weight do neighborhood watch rules carry?
 
WildCat said:
And now the lack of visible bruising on a low-res surveillance video is evidence?

Christ on a stick, this is reminiscent of truthers who claim the airplane that hit the World Trade Center had no windows so was obviously a drone, offering low-res video as proof.
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:rolleyes:

Police use low-resolution surveillance video all the time in their investigations. Not good enough for you, though?

Don't worry, I'm sure close-up photos of the injuries were taken.
 
crimresearch said:
There are multiple laws in Florida, the one on SYG and the ones on other forms of justifiable use of force, which have been posted repeatedly, and discussed, and explained.

No one was in a SYG situation, in the position that Zimmerman claims he was, 'standing' was impossible, and therefore moot, but his 'fear for my life claim' fits directly into a different section of the statutes... as cited.
Perhaps you should take your own advice and actually read them all.

Or swallow the media's wild jump to erroneous conclusions, I really don't care.
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What I'm saying is it's not a choice.

You can't pay attention to some applicable laws and not to others. If a law obtains, it obtains, and SYG clearly obtains here.

In fact, it's liable to be the critical statute in determining guilt and sentence (if any).

Furthermore, it's the only statute that is at risk of falling as a result of this case.
 
RandFan said:
It's funny how things are spun. I really thought of this guy as a fat ass that couldn't haul himself more than a few yards without wheezing. I wasn't skeptical of that at all.
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As I mentioned many pages ago his friend Oliver said he had lost a lot of weight since his 2005 mug shot, and was down to 170lbs.
 
crimresearch said:
False analogy. There are criminal actions whereby one can forfeit their life on the spot... *merely* being in a fist fight isn't one of them.

If you are interested in discussing the law, I'd appreciate it if you would take the time to learn what it actually is, instead of using wild assumptions and butressing them with debate team argumentation.
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I didn't say it was an analogy, I said it was an "extreme example".

There is a very real difference.

Which is why I pointed that out up front.
 
sgtbaker said:
His face is down, the whole time. There is one part where the officer is looking at the back of his head but when he walks toward the door, I can't even see so much as a scratch. He was supposedly treated at the scene so there might be a reason why there is no blood. I don't know, though.

At right about 1:04, he walks, placing his back to the camera, and then looks down. When he looks down, you can see an egg right where the back of his head curves into his neck and I can't tell if it's a trick of the light or an small gash right at the curvature from the top of his head to the back. It looks kind of big and my experience with head wounds is that even the tiniest of cuts bleed like the dickens. Naturally, he's wearing a red jacket so claiming lack of blood from the head wound is difficult, but I would expect to see some blood, somewhere. I still don't know.
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I re-watched, and I do see a sizable goose egg on the back of his head.

I think the resolution is too low for the lip and nose. (or there is nothing to see )

I guess his jacket was zipped up, so maybe that explains some the lack of visually obvious blood.
 
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